1903 or 1907 IS Palma Team load?

[DocRock]

New to the forum, though not to firearms. Unfortunately, my search skills have failed me on this one, so looking for some help.

The 1903 Palma Match was a controversial US win that the team chose not accept because while they used the agreed upon service rifle, their barrels were Pope made specials, not Springfield Armory standards. The next match in 1907 in Canada saw the U.S. win again in Canada with their Krag Jorgensen rifles in 30-40. At one of those two matches, the newly made especially for the U.S. Palma Team [then Ideal, now Lyman] 311284 bullet, the first gas checked cast bullet, made its debut.

I shoot in a local competition that requires firearms of U.S. design or manufacture prior to 1898, and while I have enjoyed shooting my Pedersoli replica rolling block in 45-70, it's a bit overkill at 200 yards and 40-50 rounds can be quite a thumping. So, I want to shoot one of my Krag Jorgensen rifles and was trying to find out what the load for the Palma Team 311284 bullet was.

I've come up empty on Google, so hoping someone can point me in the right direction. Thanks.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The ammunition was by the Union Metallic Company was loaded with 36 1/2 Grains of W.A. powder and the Thomas pointed bullet of 203.5 grains. It delivered a muzzle velocity of 2,140 fps. in the Krag rifle.

Source: The History and Records of the Palma Match by Colin C. C. Cheshire

I have not personally verified this info but it's a good start.

 

[DocRock]

Thanks very much. Pretty sure " the Thomas pointed bullet" is not the same as the 311284. Bears some investigation.

Your reference certainly helped, as "Thomas bullet" turned up several contemporary ads from UMC bragging about the Palma Team wins with their cartridges and "Hudson-Thomas pointed bullet", and even drawings of the cartridge, in which the bullet certainly appears to be a Spitzer design.

So, it would appear that contrary to my understanding, the 311284 was not used bungee US Palma Team either at Bisley in 1903 or in the 1907 match in Ottawa. Curious indeed.

 

[DocRock]

Well, this muddies the waters a bit more:

https://www.marlinowners.com/forum/boolit-casting/51093-history-gas-check-case-you-wanted-know.html

Turns out the Ideal 308284/Lyman 311284 was the brainchild of an accomplished rifleman and US Palma Team member named Walter Guy Hudson. as in "Hudson Thomas Bullet" referred to in the ads and Cheshire's book. Hudson worked with JH Barlow of Ideal to get the 311284 and 311 291 to market, the first US gas checked bullets.

So, is the "Hudson - Thomas bullet", the 308284/311284?

 

[DocRock]

So, in the unlikely event that anyone is interested, the Hudson - Thomas pointed bullet used in the 1907 Palma match is not the 220 grs Ideal 308284/Lyman 311284 developed by Dr. Hudson and J.H. Barlow of Ideal. The H-T bullet is an early precursor of today's VLD bullets and must have been pretty radical at the time and looks remarkably like the bullet of the 1903 pattern Patrone S 7.92x57 cartridge adopted by the German Empire. That bullet, at 203 grs, was loaded by UMC in 30-40 to 2,140 fps and delivered a conclusive Palma win in Canada for the US team.

The so-called "Hudson Bullet" was probably the Ideal 308284 or and loaded by UMC for the controversial 1903 match at Bisley. It seems unlikely that it was delivered at 2,140 fps and, in any event, I don't like to much exceed 1850 fps with my 311284, so I will stick with what I've got.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

So, is the "Hudson - Thomas bullet", the 308284/311284?

Looking around the Net it looks like you very well might have the exact bullet you are looking for.

Lyman 50th Edition Manual has plenty of data for the Lyman #311284 in the 30-40 Krag. I think the powder used back then was slower than most of the powders in the Lyman listings but it looks like one just might work well, Varget. If you do want to use faster powders it looks like AA5744 or RX7 will find all be it at slower velocities than the old reports suggest. I could very well be totally off on reloaded speed since I have no idea at all what W.A. Powder is lol. The charge of Varget is very close @35.0gr compared to 36.5gr W.A. Powder so the speeds are comparative.