1911 - Are slide spring guide rods really necessary?

[whatnickname]

I know very well that the more popular 1911s out there on the market come out of the box with one of those little nifty guide rods running up through the slide spring. If memory serves, the original thought for these was to keep the spring from kinking and to aid accuracy. If memory serves, the company that started this craze was Detonics. Their first offering was pretty skimpy by today's standards. That said the original Colt Goldcup never had one and it was damned accurate. Neither did Giles or Clark put guide rods in the incredibly accurate pistols they turned out way back in the day when they got started. Ruger seems to know a good bit about guns and their SR1911 doesn't have one. In fact IMO the Ruger 1911 may just be the best value in a 1911 today. However, there are more accurate 1911s out of the box than the Ruger. However several of those may require a second mortgage on your house in order to buy one. John Moses Browning was certainly no dummy and his design didn't incorporate a guide rod. All the big name 1911 makers seem to favor the guide rod. So here's the question: Are guide rods really necessary for reliability and accuracy or is all of this just marketing hype?

 

[Drail]

Firstly - all 1911s have a guide rod. The original design was for a short one. I think you are referring to a full length guide rod as a guide rod. Having spent some years selling and installing full length guide rods I can assure you they are not necessary and do nothing for the accuracy or reliability of the gun. The original short G.I. guide rod that Browning designed is all you need. I used to run FLGRs in all of my race guns for years. Now I use nothing but short G.I. rods. You absolutely NEED a guide rod - just not a full length one. It is all marketing hype. People just think they look cool - just like a rear spoiler on the of a front wheel drive Honda Civic.

 

[whatnickname]

Thanks for clarifying my thread Drail.

I am referring to full length guide rods. I will add one additional point. Detonics ( I think ) was the first one to come out with a shock buffer. It looked like a piece of leather sandwiched between two pieces of steel. Of course this evolved into the neoprene shock buffers we see sold by Wilson and a few others today. The idea of the shock buffer makes all the sense in the world to me. I put them in all my 1911s.

 

[Slamfire]

I do not like full length guide rods and take them off when I can. I have had several ammunition jams, created by me, where 45 ACP ammunition that ran through one M1911 was a bit long for another. What happens is a jam where the slide won't close, and won't close enough to fire the pistol. I was unable to force the slide forward. And I was unable to force the slide backwards and eject the round due to the full length guide rod. With a standard guide rod and recoil plug, I can place the recoil plug on the edge of a table, barrel hanging over the edge, and push down. This will move the slide back. With a full length guide rod, I had to use slide edges or the rear sight to push against.

I am currently shooting NRA Bullseye pistol and I do not see any full length guide rods around. If it was necessary, and made the slightest improvement in function or accuracy, everyone would have one.

 

[Drail]

Well the deal with the Detonics is that because of the short slide it cycles much faster and impacts the frame harder than a 4 or 5 in. gun. It is harder on the springs and the frame if used with full power loads. A buff "may" extend the life of the frame some and takes some of the sting out of the recoil impulse. If your ammo is too long then you need to address that problem. No one should have to force the slide to open because of poorly built ammo. Wilson's original reasoning for the FLGR was that it provided longer spring life by preventing the spring from wear when it rubbed against the inside of the spring tunnel. But by installing a FLGR all you really do is shift that wear from the outside of the spring to the inside when it rubs on the FLGR. More of a "displacement" than a solution.

 

[whatnickname]

My thoughts exactly Drail.

I always thought that the FLGR was no more than marketing hype. I never really thought much about Detonics' reasoning but your observation makes quite a bit of sense. Of course when Detonics was all the rage in carry guns $100 was a lot of money to me and eating at McDonalds was a "white tablecloth" event.

 

[Drail]

Detonics and all 3 in. 1911s belong in the same class as the Charter Bulldog - carry it a lot - shoot it enough to be proficient with and stay away from all of the +P Super Duper Defense ammo that everyone thinks is necessary today. People should worry more about hitting their target than how many ft/lbs. of energy they are placing on their target or how much "penetration" they get (if they can hit it at all).

 

[whatnickname]

Drail

Correct again. However, I've reached the point where I don't have much confidence in a 1911 with a barrel shorter than 4". I've owned a few...Kimber, Colt and in a recent moment of weakness (read that really cheap price) a RAI. The tolerances were right up against the wall. The pistols were ammunition and powder fouling sensitive. Finding a magazine that the pistol would run with also proved to be a challenge. My understanding is that the one exception to the short 1911 format is the Springfield EMP. However, I've gone another direction. My short 45 is now a Glock 36. Always goes bang with whatever ammo I put in it and I can buy two of them and then some for the cost of one Springfield EMP.

 

[DeepSouth]

Full length guide rods help with feeding and extraction.

They feed the pockets of the manufacturers, with money extracted from your wallet.

That's the only purpose I've ever found, personally, I'd rather have the GI guide rod, at least on a full sized 1911.

 

[Drail]

While a 3 in. 1911 CAN be built to be very reliable it takes MUCH MORE careful fitting of all the parts.By that - I mean there is almost no room for error or slop. Trying to achieve that while mass producing them in quantity is almost a joke. I have built and repaired and tuned enough of them that I would never own one. There's already enough things that can choke a 5 in. 1911 if it's not properly made and fitted. On a 3 in. it can drive a smith mad. Trust me on that.

 

[Shaq]

No, just hype & appearance.

The Wilson CQB has a written accuracy guarantee of 1"/25 yds & comes with a standard length guide rod. Manufacturers know people like the full-length guide rods & think they're more accurate; that's why they make them. I spoke to a gunsmith at Wilson who explained that the recoil spring is trapped in the tunnel, so a longer guide rod makes no difference in accuracy or reliability.

 

[AZAndy]

I hate 'em. I have a couple of 1911s with them that I haven't gotten around to fixing yet, but I will. I like to be able to disassemble without tools.

 

[Jim K]

I have said it before. A full length guide rod aids in extraction - the extraction of money from your pocket and into the pocket of the guide rod seller. There is no other use or need for it.

Jim

 

[tark]

DeepSouth explained it about as well as it could be explained. In the years I worked for Les, they went from trendy fad to unwanted accessory- which means worthless either way. Les won't put one on a gun anymore, unless the customer demands it.

 

[imashooter]

Drail couldn't have said it better. I have two 3.5" 1911s and they serve me very well. Never had a 3".

 

[littlelefty]

2 advantages of a FLGR to me...

#1 advantage: when one leaves his FLGR allen wrench at home, the .22 conversion kit does not need to be cleaned after that range session, and one returns home with the same amount of .22 ammo as when he left the house.

#2 advantage: online retailer makes a sale on a GI rod eliminating #1 advantage forever.

 

[stchman]

I've never understood the FLGR on a 1911. It makes no difference in the function and accuracy of the gun, and the only time the user really sees it is during cleaning and when the slide is locked open.

 

[Drail]

It does make the slide "seem" smoother when hand cycled. Almost every guy can "feel" that. That's how I used to sell them to guys - "here, feel this one. Now feel that one.". But it doesn't make any difference when firing rounds. Kind of like when you wax your car you just KNOW it goes faster. Post No 16 was priceless. Thanks.

 

[LiveLife]

It does make the slide "seem" smoother when hand cycled. Almost any guy can "feel" that.

Well, I guess I am not that "any guy". With my new railed Sig 1911 XO without FLGR, it was smoother when hand cycled compared to several new RIA Tacticals with FLGR I got to range test out of the box. In fact, most new Sig 1911s I handled without FLGR felt smoother compared to other 1911s with FLGR.

But it doesn't make any difference when firing rounds.

I have range tested different 1911s with/without FLGR and I really could not tell the difference.

I even used Harrts Recoil Reducer FLGR with 3 ball bearings/filled with mercury in my match 1911 and while it reduced felt recoil, it did not improve my shot group size. Waste of ~$150 when a $7 recoil spring would have done just as well - but I was young and dumb.

 

[Drail]

Yup. I tried one of those mercury filled guide rods back in the day. Minimal effect as far as I could tell. But when I switched to a bull barrel that required me to install and remove the guide rod from the rear the trick guide rod was too long. Into the parts box.........and back to a G.I. rod.

 

[ulflyer]

Speaking of 3+" 1911 type guns, I like them and have had several over the years. Colt Defender, STI Excort, SIG Ultra, and Colt New Agent (on my side now). Maybe I simply lucked out and got good ones each time but neither of these have had any malfunctions other than those caused by my reloads. For most part I only shoot reloads, but do run sufficient factory ammo thru each to insure its compatibility and functionality.

As to springs, my recently acquired Sig Ultra came with a flat recoil spring which makes sense to me as they are reputed to last much longer than standard type. I think its H&K that claim theirs are good for 5000 rounds. The Colt and STI uses identical double springs. I also have a SIG Commander size that uses standard Commander springs. It gets carried regularly also and is very accurate as it the Ultra.

Nevertheless, each person should carry what they are confident and comfortable with.