1944 Winchester M1 Carbine

[bersaguy]

Hey, got some questions regarding a recently inherited Winchester. I'm not an expert on carbines, but I've seen more than my fair share of Forgotten Weapons videos and noticed this seems to have an odd assortment of features. Well, really just the safety seems out of place. By the serial number, this should have been produced mid 1944 (ish). It has a cross bolt safety, bayonet lug, m2 bolt, and type 3 rear sight. Does that sound right to anyone?
Also, barrel has some pitting, and now looks a little better than it did when the photos were taken. I think it should be fine to take out and shoot, but is there anything to watch out for when shooting with a somewhat pitted barrel?

 

[JCooperfan1911]

I would replace the sights on it to the early flip models to make the gun more correct. The adjustable sights are a post war if I recall.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

Shoot it! Looks like a keeper to me!

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

There is really no such thing as a "correct" carbine, as improved parts were added to the guns on a running basis and at different times by different manufacturers. On top of that, they were pretty much all sent back to the arsenal at some point and the various parts got mixed up again during the rebuild process.

The safety is easily swapped for a flip-style if you prefer. I would leave the peep sight alone as it is a vast improvement over the earlier two-position model.

The barrel pitting is a bit concerning because all .30 Carbine ammo was supposed to be non-corrosive AND it is close to the chamber where pressures are highest. Its tough to judge from the photos if it is deep enough to cause a safety concern. I would have a qualified gunsmith check it out. None of mine have anything like that. They are certainly valuable enough now to justify a new barrel if needed- Im pretty sure Criterion still offers them.

He should also check the staking of the gas piston nut and go ahead and replace the recoil spring too- they are cheap and readily available last time I looked. To obtain best accuracy, the recoil plate and action hang should be adjusted at the same time.

Also, check for a bent or squashed barrel. Carbine barrels are soft and some importers (Blue Sky) were known to stamp them so hard that it warped the bore. Ive seen some with bent barrels too. An old Army buddy of mine said they had so many bent carbines in his unit that they made a .30 caliber rod special tool and keep tweaking them straight until the rod would pass all the way through!

All that aside, carbines are super fun. Mine have been very reliable and accurate.

 

[bersaguy]

Thanks for the replies, we'll go ahead and leave it the way it is. I'll look into getting it re-barreled. Mike (the previous owner) was a hell of a guy, and we lost him too soon. He was more of a hunter, so we never knew he had any carbines. He also had a very nice 1st gen Universal with a monte carlo stock that also came to us. The Winchester was filthy inside, so I'm not sure if he ever even shot it, but, no import marks anywhere on it. The stock is very glossy, like someone took linseed oil to it. I can still make out the crossed cannon stamp though. I think the corrosion in the barrel is more from it sitting with crud in the barrel for a very long time than any type of corrosive ammo being used. My dad has an early Plainfield, and now we have the early Universal and the Winchester. Soon, we'll get them all out to the range and do a little side by side comparison. Just got some new KCI 15 round mags in and will order a couple new recoil springs

 

[bersaguy]

Does any one know if the 1st gen Universals will take a GI stock?

 

[bersaguy]

And also, looks like the Criterion barrels are available, any recommendations on who to install one in the central Florida area?

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Does any one know if the 1st gen Universals will take a GI stock?

IIRC, right around serial number 10,000 the trigger housing became the same width as the magwell, so a GI stock will need the wood opened up around the trigger guard to work.

If its a 4 digit SN, its probably a drop-in. Of course, if you swap the aluminum Universal trigger housing for a steel GI unit, that will allow use of an unmodded GI stock. I swapped mine and it only took minor fitting.

 

[JDeere]

Leave it as it is as you mentioned. Almost all were rebuilt at some point. I have seen people spend tons of money trying to correct carbines and garands. Take it out and shoot it before judging the barrel. She may shoot just fine. She's a battle rifle and should be treated as such...

 

[GooseGestapo]

Soak the bore with a good copper removing solvent. Follow up with a polish type bore cleaner (ie:Brownells or Remington paste bore cleaner).
Shoot it!
PPU (Academy Sports Monarch) 110gr FMJ and soft point seem to be the best currently available.

The CMP @Anniston, Al can rebarrel the carbine with a Criterion barrel cheaper than anyone else.
However it’s necessary to get a RA# and notification of when to send it.
I’ve been trying for three years with no response.

Fulton Armory can also rebarrel the gun but may ruin any collectors value.

I don’t think that pitting is bad enough to significantly affect the accuracy.
I have a Saginaw S.G. 1943 with an obviously replaced 1944 Underwood barrel that looks new, and type 3 sight. It shoots patterns, not groups!
I’ve also got a ‘44 Inland that shoots decent with a well worn barrel.
Carbines weren’t known for being tack drivers, but some shoot well.
Shoot it!

 

[CapnMac]

Built in '44 does not necessarily mean it got issued out before '46. So, a lot of Carbines just sat around until 1950 and were hastily "brought to spec" (m2 bolts, Type III bands [w/ bayo lug] and the like). The Expedient Need of KW meant that the original trigger groups (round and round) were not changed to the "round and lever" configuration.

And the unchanged versions were often sent to allies (Italy, Denmark, France, etc.) "as is" too. Where they then received other parts considered "necessary" by those governments.

It's a fine Carbine as is; shoot it as it stands.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Like others have said, M1 Carbines were upgraded either in the field or in arsenal repair with improved rear sight, flip safety, three nib magazine catch, round top bolt, barrel band with bayonet lug, M2 stock, etc.

The Army/Air Force manual on the Carbine family lists protocols for inspection and repair. The preference was to replace the M1A1 folding stock with M1 or M2 fixed stock, flat top bolt with round, etc., as parts were available at place of repair.

I consider upgraded M1 Carbines as being just as authentic as the ones that somehow escaped upgrades, and maybe as more authentic than Carbines that have had parts retrofitted to "as left the factory in WWII" configuration.

Added: The heavier round top bolt was introduced as an upgrade to the M1 Carbine before the M2 was adopted. A lot of the first M2 Carbines left the factory with the lighter flat top bolt because that was what was available at the factory. The field manual recommends replacing flat top bolts in M2s with round top bolts when Carbines were inspected even if their flat top bolts was in good repair. But the round top bolts replaced the flat top bolts for M1 carbines.

 

[Speedo66]

I can see the round bolt superseding flat if it's easier to manufacture, but why would they replace flat top bolts in good shape?

Were they prone to failure? My '43 Underwood has a flat bolt and all other early features except the rear sight. I think Underwood was one of the few manufacturers who made complete carbines, not requiring any parts from others.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I can see the round bolt superseding flat if it's easier to manufacture, but why would they replace flat top bolts in good shape? ...

I have a M1 Carbine (IBM) with flat top bolt. Not sure why I would want to replace a bolt that for me has operated fine for thousands of rounds.

I can only speculate for a reason. Maybe the military just wanted uniformity.

 

[CapnMac]

I believe the round bolt was faster to manufactures, and was also believed to be stronger (for having more mass).

It was probably a procurement issue, too--they had all the spares for the M2 and M3 already paid for in inventory, and a significant amount of M1 spares were never completed due to contract cancellations in 1946, and were either surplessed or issued as Military Aid.

The above is but mere opinion, though--worth about 2¢

 

[eastbank]

i think the round bolt(more mass-weight) was to slow the rate of fire in the m-2 on full auto.my early winchester was given all the add on,s when it went tru arsenal rebuilt.