2 questions in one. Please help

[ch3no2freak]

I think I have an understanding of head space between mili and civi model rifles and ammo. I have about 500 rounds of military 308 win lc brass I bought on surplus and then found out the head space in my savage axis is to small to cycle these rounds. So lesson learned there I suppose. I also have come to find out that I can adjust this in the rifle with a few tools and the correct go - no go gauges. so first question:

1. Is it possible to set up a rifle to allow head space to accept both milli and civi specs with out adjusting the rifle every time or is the tolerance for this too small?

I am new to reloading so thanks to great sites like this with awesome forums and great people with lots of knowledge I have been learning a ton of stuff. I have a bunch of Russian .308 win rounds which a friends dad gave me. He said the head space would be a little tight but they should work. They have worked fairly well although there not all that accurate. About 30 didn't fire due to a bad primer so I pulled the bullet heads out and they are 144 gr boat tail non tracer rounds. As for my second question:

2. Can I reuse these bullet heads or should I just scrap them? Is there a powder out there to use these with these other than what the bullets were using originally? I would be a little hesitant to reuse powder I know nothing about.

Thank for any help you can give and if you need pics of anything let me know and I will get them up as soon as possible, and remember to take it easy on the insults, ha-ha I'm still kinda new to this and learning allot.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Do not reuse the powder from the rounds you pulled. There is no way to know what powder it is which means there is no way for you to use the correct charge weight.

There is no reason at all why you can't use those bullets as long as they weren't damaged while pulling them. Actually, even if they were damaged you could use them, they just won't be as accurate! lol As for which powder to use, use any powder that's good for any .308 load. I really like IMR4064 in the 308 but there are a lot of good powders for loading that round.

I'm a little confused as to why the surplus ammo won't chamber in your rifle but if you say it won't, I guess it won't. I have never heard of anyone changing their rifle just to accept surplus ammo. I would not mess with the factory settings just to shoot a few hundred rounds. You would probably be better off adjusting the ammo than the rifle. (start over) Again, I have never heard of anyone changing the headspace set by the factory on a rifle just to shoot some surplus ammo. I would not do that. Also, if you do something incorrectly, when you pull the trigger things are going to get very interesting very quickly.

(BTW, bullets are the "heads" so there's no reason to say bullet heads)

I hope I helped a little...

 

[jwrowland77]

That's odd.

I have a Savage Axis .308 win as well, and don't seem to have any issues after FL resizing military brass.

Hope you are able to find a solution.

 

[USSR]

I have about 500 rounds of military 308 win lc brass I bought on surplus and then found out the head space in my savage axis is to small to cycle these rounds.

ch3no2freak,

Assuming you have FL resized the LC brass you bought, you should do the following to determine why they won't fit your chamber:

Take a magic marker and color the case. Then, after trying to chamber it, check the case for "scuff" marks indicating where things are tight. It will be one of two places - the shoulder area or the web area (just forward of the extractor groove). If it's the shoulder area, then you need to screw your FL sizing die down further into your press. If it's the web area, then you need to resize the brass with a Small Base Resizing Die. Almost all LC brass except those marked "LR", "NM", or "Match" are machinegun fired, and machineguns have large chambers which blow the brass way out of spec. Good luck.

Don

 

[rcmodel]

308 win lc brass I bought on surplus and then found out the head space in my savage axis is to small to cycle these rounds.

Do Not adjust the rifle.

Do adjust your FL sizing die so it fully resizes the case.

I would bet your sizing die is not screwed down all the way and 'bumping' over center at full ram travel.

If it isn't, you are not pushing the shoulder back where it belongs.

rc

 

[243winxb]

Small Base Dies.

 

[LNK]

I am willing to bet you have not set the shoulder back far enough. My Fal has a long chamber dimension and the brass will not fit in my Weatherby. You didn't say what dies you are using. Make sure you have the shell holder against the bottom of the full length sizing die. Use a good lube,( I like Imperial sizing wax) and size one of the cases. Test fit in your rifles chamber. If that doesn't work, your headspace maybe a little tight. At that point get a set of guages....

Do what USSR suggests to see where the problem is. MG chambers are quite large and your barss may have large bases. However, that is correctable by fulllength resizing.

LNK

 

[ch3no2freak]

Ok I readjusted my FL sizing die and the round will still not fully chamber in the rifle. Isn't the head space different on these lc nato rounds?

Yeah I burned the old powder I got out of the old rounds. None of the powders data shows loads for 144 gr bullets. They show 140 and 150. Do I just load the closest weight?

I'm using rcbs 2 fl die set.

 

[Sunray]

"...the head space in my Savage axis is to small to cycle..." It's not the headspace.
"...head space different on these lc nato rounds..." Cartridges do not have headspace. Headspace is a rifle manufacturing tolerance only.
"...burned the old powder..." Makes grass grown like stink. Very high in nitrogen, so it is. Oh well. You won't have to cut it.
"...Can I reuse these bullet heads..." Heads they ain't, but yes you can use 'em. Bit light though.
"...just load the closest weight..." Use the 140 grain data. 4 grains won't matter.
"...readjusted my FL sizing die..." The shell holder should just kiss the bottom of the die with the ram all the way up. All your dies should be set up this way. Then you adjust the decapper and seating plug up or down.

 

[ch3no2freak]

ok thanks for the bullet info. at least i have the stuff to reuse them.

well then the headspace in the rifle must be too tight because that's what I adjusted the dies to and the round still wont chamber.

 

[ch3no2freak]

ok let me change how i say that. the bolt goes all the way down but the handle wont come down. I have a bunch of hornady match brass and that cycles just fine.

 

[243winxb]

This >

Take a magic marker and color the case. Then, after trying to chamber it, check the case for "scuff" marks indicating where things are tight. It will be one of two places - the shoulder area or the web area (just forward of the extractor groove). If it's the shoulder area, then you need to screw your FL sizing die down further into your press. If it's the web area, then you need to resize the brass with a Small Base Resizing Die. Almost all LC brass except those marked "LR", "NM", or "Match" are machinegun fired, and machineguns have large chambers which blow the brass way out of spec. Good luck.

 

[ch3no2freak]

ok i got it. i fixed it. i turned the sizing die even farther again and now it cycles through. thanks for the help and all the info guys.

 

[gamestalker]

Go buy a couple books and read them. The lack of proper descriptive terminology, the part about adjusting the head space on your bolt action to accept your reloads, and the general nature of the problems your experiencing are all indications that you have not bought or read an instructional reloading book. I'm not intending to embarrass you or other wise offend you, but this hobby can definitely hurt you if you approach it incorrectly. Lyman 49th, Speer, ABC's of reloading are all excellent books.

GS

 

[witchhunter]

Loading is like messing with the chemical described in your web name. Be careful.

 

[rcmodel]

i turned the sizing die even farther again and now it cycles through.

Told ya in post #5!!

rc

 

[exbrit49]

Some of the posts I see!

Some of the posts I see on Head spacing problems, scare the heck out of me!
I have been loading necked cases for a lot of years and there is NO way I will reload ANY Necked case without using a head space gage. I remember seeing a guy at the range that had reloaded some 30/30 after sizing FL. After shooting 5 rounds, he had 2 case separations about 1/8 inch in front of the base and carried on shooting until he had a case stuck in the chamber. I checked over a couple of rounds that hadn't been fired and they had definitely had the shoulder moved back to far. To help out, I took him back to my workshop and removed the stuck case, I asked if he minded if I checked a couple of rounds he had left with my Wilson gage. WOW he had over .030 headpace!!!!!
When I set up to load my cases, I FL resize and using the gage and the rifle and I am going to shoot them in I maintain almost no zero space. Less wear and tear on the brass and comforting to know exactly what those rounds are set up to.
If you are going to load necked cases guys, spend the $20 to buy the gage!! it might save a hand or an eye!!

 

[fguffey]

“WOW he had over .030 headpace!!!!!”

Exbrit49, You measured the case with the Wilson case gage and discovered he had .030” head space? I have to ask if the case was protruding from the top of the gage or was the case head below the top of the gage .025” +/- a few.

Had I been there I would have had to ask “How did you do that!? When the die is set up in the press and there is a shell holder involved the maximum ability of the press die and shell holder to size the case is limited to minimum length/full length size. Minimum length/full length sizes for the 30/06 is .005: shorten than a go-gage length chamber.

There is no such term as .030” head space. The length of the chamber is measured from datum/shoulder to the bolt face, in the perfect world ‘SAAMI says’ the head space length of the 30/06 chamber is minimum 2.048 and 2.058 maximum.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06 Springfield.pdf


“WOW he had over .030 headpace!!!!!” I will assume the case was too short from the shoulder to the head of the case (I have no ideal how that is possible) or the chamber was too long from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face, .030” is 2 time + the amount of excessive length than a field reject gage. I have an Eddystone M1917 with a long chamber, is .002” longer than a field reject chamber/gage. I form 280 Remington cases for that rifle, when firing cases for the first time in that chamber I have .002” difference in length between the chamber and case when measured from the usual places.

SAAMI does not list head space for the case, SAAMI list a length for the case when measuring from a datum of .375” to the head of the case. The basic measurement for the case length from the datum to the head of the case is 2.052 –.007”. (minimum 2.048 and 2.058 maximum chamber length with a case length of 2.052 –.007” when measured from the usual places could be a conflict in terms if we were talking about absolutes)

F. Guffey

.

 

[ranger335v]

All dimensions of .308 and 7.62 cases are exactly the same, only the headstamps differ.

Headspace is in the chamber, specifically the length, and our ammo has to fit the chamber. We should adjust our sizer so the cartridge fits into that space as snugly as possible without having to force the action to close. So called "case headspace gages" only measure the case shoulder length so we can FL size to closely match the fired shoulder length but that can be done without a gage if we know what we're doing. Obviously you don't have your sizer screwed down quite far enough.

Adjusting an FL sizer according to the maker's instructions usually makes ammo that will chamber and fire but not always. Dies, shell hoders and presses all vary a tad, as do the cases, so no fixed "adjustment" formula can be very good. Nor is it a good practice to blindly accept FL sizing that does "work" without adjusting the fit properly - you might actually set shoulders back 30 thou and that's far too much!

The normal full range of cartridge "headspace", min to max, for a rimless bottle neck case is about 7 thou but the chamber is still longer and, ideally, the actual looseness of the fit will be no more than 2-3 thou. A 1/8th turn of a die moves the shoulders about 8 thou so those who say to make "small" die adjustments of 1/4 or 1/2 turn (16 to 32 thou) don't know what they're talking about.

Rimmed cases such as the .30-30 "headspace" on the rim. The location of the shoulder hardly matters so far as a head seperation but the cases will last longer without splitting if the shoulder is a snug fit like any other bottle neck case.

 

[fguffey]

ranger335v said:

“Adjusting an FL sizer according to the maker's instructions usually makes ammo that will chamber and fire but not always. Dies, shell holders and presses all vary a tad, as do the cases, so no fixed "adjustment" formula can be very good. Nor is it a good practice to blindly accept FL sizing that does "work" without adjusting the fit properly - you might actually set shoulders back 30 thou and that's far too much!”

“you might actually set shoulders back 30 thou and that's far too much!” and I ask, how? “Dies, shell holders and presses all vary a tad”? A reloader that understands transfers and standards, has the tools and knows how to use them knows ‘a tad’ is not a value.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Some of the posts I see!
by exbrit49

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some of the posts I see on Head spacing problems, scare the heck out of me!
I have been loading necked cases for a lot of years and there is NO way I will reload ANY Necked case without using a head space gage. I remember seeing a guy at the range that had reloaded some 30/30 after sizing FL. After shooting 5 rounds, he had 2 case separations about 1/8 inch in front of the base and carried on shooting until he had a case stuck in the chamber. I checked over a couple of rounds that hadn't been fired and they had definitely had the shoulder moved back to far. To help out, I took him back to my workshop and removed the stuck case, I asked if he minded if I checked a couple of rounds he had left with my Wilson gage. WOW he had over .030 headpace!!!!!
When I set up to load my cases, I FL resize and using the gage and the rifle and I am going to shoot them in I maintain almost no zero space. Less wear and tear on the brass and comforting to know exactly what those rounds are set up to.
If you are going to load necked cases guys, spend the $20 to buy the gage!! it might save a hand or an eye!!

________________________________________________________________

Exbrit,

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-30 Winchester.pdf

The head space for the 30/30 chamber according to SAAMI is a minimum of .063” to .070” maximum, problem? No one measure the thickness of the rim. The thickness of the rim can increase and or decrease the effect the case has on head space.

As with all belted and rim cases the reloader has an option that requires deterring the length of the chamber form the shoulder back to the bolt face, once the case has been fired and the case body fills the chamber the case body and shoulder should not be sized mindlessly back to minimum length/full length sized.

Case travel, I am the fan of eliminating all that case travel. The 30/30 when full length sized moves forward and away from the bolt face, the case head separation happens when the case body locks onto the chamber and the case head moves back to the bolt face. I have no interest in explaining how the case head separates from the bolt face when fired, just simply mentioning it brings out the ugly in people, anyhow, reduce case travel to reduce case head separation.

F. Guffey
Forgive,

 

[bergmen]

Some of the posts I see on Head spacing problems, scare the heck out of me!
I have been loading necked cases for a lot of years and there is NO way I will reload ANY Necked case without using a head space gage. I remember seeing a guy at the range that had reloaded some 30/30 after sizing FL. After shooting 5 rounds, he had 2 case separations about 1/8 inch in front of the base and carried on shooting until he had a case stuck in the chamber. I checked over a couple of rounds that hadn't been fired and they had definitely had the shoulder moved back to far. To help out, I took him back to my workshop and removed the stuck case, I asked if he minded if I checked a couple of rounds he had left with my Wilson gage. WOW he had over .030 headpace!!!!!
When I set up to load my cases, I FL resize and using the gage and the rifle and I am going to shoot them in I maintain almost no zero space. Less wear and tear on the brass and comforting to know exactly what those rounds are set up to.
If you are going to load necked cases guys, spend the $20 to buy the gage!! it might save a hand or an eye!!

Exactly! After experiencing my first episodes of case head separation in my new Browning X-Bolt in .308 Winchester (reloaded from brass fired in my old Winchester model 88) I got serious about taking headspace into account.

I threw away all my old brass (after confirming that I was pushing the shoulder back too far and seeing the thinning just in front of the rim). Then I set up my dies for proper headspace for the X-Bolt.

I also bought a new die set for my M1A and set these dies for proper head spacing for that rifle. I have all new brass for both these rifles and will proceed from here.

Dan

 

[homatok]

++1 Mr. F Guffy!!

The headspace measurement in all rifles portrays the distance from the bolt-face to some predetermined point within the rifle’s chamber. On a rimmed case such as the 30-30 that measurement is from the bolt face to the point that the forward face of the rim contacts the back end of the chamber. Similarly, the headspace on a belted cartridge is measured from the forward face of the raised belt back to the bolt-face. On a rimless cartridge such as the 308, headspace is measured from the bolt-face to some point at which the shoulder of the case contacts the forward portion of the chamber. When working with rimless cases, the headspace measurement is much more critical (safety wise) than with either belted or rimmed cases. With either of the latter two cases, a chamber with excessive chamber clearance will just cause the case to stretch excessively, resulting in early case failure (usually in the form of a case-head separation)! Rifles with too much chamber clearance (headspace), using rimless cases however, can result in miss-fires, or even totally ruptured cases.