.223 Rem/5.56mm NATO and 80gr bullets?

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MCMXI

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It might be common knowledge that you have to single feed 80gr .223 Rem loads if you're shooting an AR but for some that's a compromise that they're willing to live with for 500 yard or 600 yard matches. However, how about the hunting, varmint or non-competitive target shooting crowd? Is it a big deal to be able to load 80gr .223 Rem bullets and have them fit in the internal or detachable magazine? I haven't found any ammunition manufacturer that makes 80gr loads for .223 Rem/5.56 yet so this might only be a question for handloaders that own .223 Rem bolt action rifles.

Thanks. :)
 
Frankly Except in a NRA or CMP EIC match where I'm trying for distinguished points, I shoot the Hornady 75's across the course. I'm not even sure that I'll get any more points/X's at a range like Talladega where wind is seldom a big factor shooting the 80gr MatchKings. At camp Perry or Raton NM, definitely the 80's, but at 2x $$, the Hornadys are a bargain. If it's not a x at 200-300 or 10 at 600, it's my fault.
 
It might be common knowledge that you have to single feed 80gr .223 Rem loads if you're shooting an AR but for some that's a compromise that they're willing to live with for 500 yard or 600 yard matches. However, how about the hunting, varmint or non-competitive target shooting crowd? Is it a big deal to be able to load 80gr .223 Rem bullets and have them fit in the internal or detachable magazine? I haven't found any ammunition manufacturer that makes 80gr loads for .223 Rem/5.56 yet so this might only be a question for handloaders that own .223 Rem bolt action rifles.

Thanks. :)

I worked up some loads for my Mini with some odd ball 80grn softpoints i bought from midway a while back. Those loads shot like crap in my 1-9, which isnt a surprise, but i DID chrono them and loaded to mag length best velocity i could get was 2550ish. w748 and cfe223 were the two best powders for that application I had.
I gave the rest of the bullets to @armoredman , he might have gotten a chance to work up a better load for them than i did.
 
Generally 80's and heavier which could be loaded to mag length become pretty blunt, or at least have to give up their boattail to gain some junk in the trunk and leave room for a long ogive out front - so those short and fat bullets which fit in the mag when seated appropriately just don't carry the aerodynamic advantage of their longer, leaner "single load only" brethren. So it's kind of a "single load or no load" for 80+.
 
It might be common knowledge that you have to single feed 80gr .223 Rem loads if you're shooting an AR but for some that's a compromise that they're willing to live with for 500 yard or 600 yard matches. However, how about the hunting, varmint or non-competitive target shooting crowd? Is it a big deal to be able to load 80gr .223 Rem bullets and have them fit in the internal or detachable magazine? I haven't found any ammunition manufacturer that makes 80gr loads for .223 Rem/5.56 yet so this might only be a question for handloaders that own .223 Rem bolt action rifles.

Thanks. :)

The 80gr are fine. they work great from standard magazines.
there is no much difference from the 77grainers.
This is a great round. I used it but now I only reload it for both the 223R and AI that delivers a tad extra speed
.
http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_305&product_id=549

But IMO the new gold standard are the new sierra TMK in particulary the Black Hills load that comes to replace the 77grhpbt.
The improvement in ballistics is substantial and even with the tip it is pushed to some very impressive speeds even from a 16 carbine and shorter but
ideally 20 or 21 inch barrels.
They are great for long range hunting like popping coyotes at long range, if you can hit them.

Some modern magazines will let you load past 2.3", the other issue is the freebore situation in a particular chamber for max coal.

CFE is a great powder for this. Same for the 6x45 heavy loads of 100gr or 105 grains VLD loads. Those are for single feed or center stack magazines.
 
The Nosler 80 HPBT is exactly what I'm talking about above - heavier, but less aerodynamic to make it fit mag lengths. It's G1 is .415, whereas the 73ELD-M has a .398 G1, the 80 hornady is .485, the Berger VLD 80 is .455, the Sierra 77TMK is .420 and the 80SMK is .460... why load heavier bullets if you don't gain aerodynamics? An 80 which fits in the mag and doesn't shoot as flat or efficiently as a lighter pill doesn't move my needle.

They're fine bullets, but if a guy is chasing fractions, there's more to it than bullet weight.
 
The Nosler 80 HPBT is exactly what I'm talking about above - heavier, but less aerodynamic to make it fit mag lengths. It's G1 is .415, whereas the 73ELD-M has a .398 G1, the 80 hornady is .485, the Berger VLD 80 is .455, the Sierra 77TMK is .420 and the 80SMK is .460... why load heavier bullets if you don't gain aerodynamics? An 80 which fits in the mag and doesn't shoot as flat or efficiently as a lighter pill doesn't move my needle.

They're fine bullets, but if a guy is chasing fractions, there's more to it than bullet weight.

But what if your mag length is around 2.45"? Would this be considered a desirable feature for a .223 Rem bolt action rifle, and if you had such a rifle, would you load 80gr bullets for it such as the ELD Match from Hornady or the Berger mentioned above?
 
SAAMI max OAL for .223 is 2.260" with no ogives involved. Any .223 mag should hold that length. If it doesn't, just load so your ammo will fit.
In any case, heavy for calibre bullets is more about the rifling twist than the OAL. 1 in 7 is considered the 'norm' for 'em.
 
hi @Varminterror & @Sunray,

SAAMI doesn't apply to 5.56 ammunition. CIP is closer but two different things. Some makers might indicate the 5.56 or compatible label for the chamber selection.
With high performance ammo we might refer to it as 223 but many times we are talking about 5.56 and compatible rifles and carbines.

Many times one wins ballistic coefficient with the extra grain but they are not necessarily related.
All other things being equal a tad extra grain gives additional ballistic performance in the air w/o significant loss in speed at the muzzle. (lets say many 77 or 80 gr vs. a 75gr or 70gr bullets).
Weight might give an indication but in reality construction, material and shape is what determines performance and also the required twist as well as the MIN and MAX length
that is what really matters in terms of being able to load from an AR magazine and shoot from popular rifles. You have lighter bullets that require a faster twist than heavier ones.

One has plenty of 80gr and 77gr bullets that work well from AR magazines, 1:8 twist and perform really well including top quality loaded ammuntion.
For example the amazing black hills MK262 mod1 with 77gr that is effective for soft targets in combat all the way to 600-700 yards.
Our MK262 produces about 100fps more than the IMI counterpart and amazing speeds not just from SPRs but 16" and shorter barrels. Clocking 2750fps avg. from a 16" with 77grains
is significant and, if that was not enough, they released the 5.56 77gr TMK that does even better in terms of speed and ballistics. The ballistic coefficient of the TMK can be rounded
up to .415 corrected. There are also the 75gr Hornadys and others that are also nice for long range work whether is target, hunting or tactical and many of those loads can get supersonic
to 900 yards and even 1000 yards with ideal conditions even shot from a 16" and ideal from a national match or tactical 20" barrel. They all work with 1:8 twist and some 75gr with 1:9 twist
as recommended by manufacturer although one might choose an extra turn depending on other considerations. But when you look at the speed on the target you see those 77gr and 80gr
come on top. Not by much but this normally translates in more penetration and letality so for certain targets one might choose a heavier bullet, that will also buck the wind a tad better.

This is the 77gr TMK tested from a 16" SI-Defense/arp AR. 555ft ASL. Temp.20C. 10mph. From a 20" barrel expect 2800fps+ give and take.

upload_2017-8-29_19-48-48.png


One has plenty of good performers in the 75gr-80gr with the advantage going to the 77gr and 80gr in terms of externals and terminal ballistics.
There is also the advantage of having extra sectional density and momentum on the target (not energy, two different things). Even not a lot it scores for you.

In terms of terminal ballistics the hpbt, TMK and such behave pretty similarly with 2-3 inches of penetration before fragmentation and they do that with broad wounding
and even a slower speeds therefore avoiding pin hole wounding tipical of other bullets including bonded and solids. They work so well that they are ideal for
long range coyote hunting (like the 80gr amax) and will drop a coyote at 600 or 700 yards if one can hit them. Some lighter bullets cannot get there with enough speed and momentum
to be consistent.

We have plenty of bullets from berger, lapua, nosler, sierra, etc.. in the 77gr-80gr between 1.030 to 1.070 that fit the AR magazine even when loaded at minimum 2.26 coal although many
people reloading are going to take advantage of modern magazines for longer coal or whatever works best depending on freebore situation.
We even have a barnes 85gr match burner that can also be shot from AR magazines.

But when we get into the VLDs like the Barnes and hornady one jumps quickly into the long bullets from 1.110 to 1.116" and long ogives that makes it impossible to load them into AR
magazines even some of them at max coal of modern mags.

If one wants to reload, with careful selection of brass, bullets and powders one can really stretch the capabilities of the 223. The modern 223 Remington shoots flatter and longer than countless
other AR15 cartriges even some popular ones and many times does that with a pretty affordable budget not just from the initial equipment perspective but total TCO and something to consider if one likes to shoot a lot.

If one reloads the 223AI is another great round that will give amazing performance when loaded from center stack magazines up to 2.45 COAL, something the specialty user and reloader is going to like. Same as the 6mmx45-L and 6mmTCU with 105grains goodies.
 
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But what if your mag length is around 2.45"? Would this be considered a desirable feature for a .223 Rem bolt action rifle, and if you had such a rifle, would you load 80gr bullets for it such as the ELD Match from Hornady or the Berger mentioned above?

Thanks @MCMXI - I forgot to consider my favor for these BETTER, long, lean, high BC bullets is not implicit, and I neglected to convey my support for them in long mag bolt guns and also single feeding AR's. I don't favor heavy, stubby bullets with low BC's and low velocities - I DO, however, favor long seated, long, lean, high BC bullets in accommodating mags or when single loaded.

ABSOLUTELY - if you have the mag length, or even if you don't but are instead willing to single load, there's a real advantage to shooting the long 80's and 90's with high Bc's. The numbers don't lie. I'm quite content to load the 75 Amax, now 75ELD-M, and the 80 and 90 Berger in AR's - single loaded. Loading the 223 in a properly throated rifle with a true short action mag length - Katy, bar the door....

If I'm shooting long enough to need them, I don't mind single loading. The 77SMK and 73ELD do pretty well from an AR mag, but when I really need to cast a long line, I'll single load an 80VLD, or more recently, the 90 VLD.
 
Not sure who chambers 223 with 1:6 twist for the 90gr SMK. I m afraid is underbored and just too much even for a bolt action, even for the AI reamers.
 
Hi. CIP doesn't apply to NATO specs either. 80 grain bullets don't apply to 5.56NATO either.
The assorted American ammo makers will put ".223 Rem/5.56mm" on their labels, but the ammo is .223 Rem. Nothing to do with NATO specs.
In any case, the bullet itself has nothing whatever to do with the magazine.
The ballistic coefficient is a measure of how a bullet flies through the air. Doesn't mean much either in the long run.
Green Mountain Barrels is listing an experimental .223 Wylde 19" barrel with a 1 in 6 twist. $198.
 
Hi. CIP doesn't apply to NATO specs either. 80 grain bullets don't apply to 5.56NATO either.

Hi Sunray,
Correct, they are separate things, just closer from the 5.56 parameters. Sorry I didn't explain this clearly.
Pretty close to 80 grains, 77gr is used in NATO service ammunition, with black hills MK262 possibly being the most accurate service ammo one can buy.
Anyway, some 80gr bullets are virtually identical in shape, length and weight distribution and designed to be loaded in the parent case.
Under these parameters one has ammo that exceeds and improves the performance of the service rounds and that is why Special forces and other unitss use them
in their 5.56 rifles.

Nothing too serious can be done below the 55K psi so SAAMI 223rem spec is obsolete for this type of use.
I guess it all depends on the reamer maker. There are at least a dozen different reamers people chamber "223" with and some are forward compatible and pretty nice
chambers although they might be labeled outside as "223 Remington".
For modern rifle makers this is a matter of both, versatility and also protection from liabilities due to all the ammo people buy from all over the world.

Bottom line, know your chamber and choose and/or reload accordingly.

Example of different "223R" and 5.56 reamers and dimensions.

Notice the difference between neck length, freebore and throat angle. These are just a few of the variants...

Chamber.jpg
 
I'm not sure who really does much long range precision shooting with factory barrels.

I have not struggled, after throating, to get the 80 & 90 vld to shoot from a 7.7" krieger, 7 twist shilen, or 7 twist BHW. I've only shot it a bit from an 8 twist BHW, which is not throated appropriately, so I'm really stuck on seating depth vs velocity, but it's done well at 600
 
Hi Varminterror,
Do the 90gr stabilize in your 7.7 krieber or 7 shilen? what bullet maker/ model? Also what powder and speeds? I am asking in good faith not to argue or
anything.

I was saying because almost every barrel maker (including high end barrel makers) have barrels in stock at hand and online for anyone to buy.
Midway for example carries a few of them. Lothar walter website has specials with bolt matched to the barrel.
Krieger, shilen, Lilja, oak, ...same thing.
The issue is that I don't see anyone selling a 1:6 twist required for 90 grain VLD bullets. Those are normally special order / custom shop type of deal.
 
Just an FYI... Barnes loads their own 85gr in 5.56 mag length.

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85gr Barnes OTM.5.56.....( headstamp ) BBR 5.56 13.........16" Middie ,Av. 2482, ES 32...........20" rifle length gas, Av. 2565, ES 48 ..........Great accuracy, I was concerned that 1n7 might not be enough.
 
Those are loaded with the match burners. Not a fast load specially for the shorter barrels that is why black hills with the TMK are hard to beat.
But they are very accurate and do great in the wind.
 
Our family has won quite a number of matches with the 80 SMK loaded long (2.5" or so).

If I had to fit in a magazine, I'd load the 77 SMK.
 
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