25-06 beats 6.5 creedmoor

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VoodooMountain

VoodooMountain

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I came across this article and thought it was interesting. The meat and potatoes is about halfway down thto page by th picture of the fallen antelope and 2 hunters.

I love my 25-06 (I have 3) but have never tried any longer range shooting. I basically gave up the idea mainly due to the unavailability of high bc bullets/rifling twist.

Great hunting round though here in the state of Kansas.

https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/25-06-remington-beats-6-5-creedmoor/
 
At short and medium range velocity is king, bc dosent matter that much.

I always stayed away from the .257s because of the lack of decent BC bullets, and not even because i really need them. I recently finished building a .250AI on a savage action, and the guns very accurate. With the bergers they talk about in the article im running them just over 3100fps, and hits are very easy to over 400yds.
But not a whole lot easier than my 6.5CM with 123s at around 3k.

Im looking forward to comparing the .250, to the 6-284, and 6.5-284.....inside of 500yds i dont think there will be a ton of difference.

I dont realy shoot much farther than that, my rangefinders only really good to about 500....

It would be neat to see how well a new crop of .25s with 1-8twist barrels and bullets that match do. But again for what most .25s are used for, they are much more effective than they are offten given credit for being.
 
LoonWulf said:
At short and medium range velocity is king, bc dosent matter that much.

I always stayed away from the .257s because of the lack of decent BC bullets, and not even because i really need them. I recently finished building a .250AI on a savage action, and the guns very accurate. With the bergers they talk about in the article im running them just over 3100fps, and hits are very easy to over 400yds.
But not a whole lot easier than my 6.5CM with 123s at around 3k.

Im looking forward to comparing the .250, to the 6-284, and 6.5-284.....inside of 500yds i dont think there will be a ton of difference.

I dont realy shoot much farther than that, my rangefinders only really good to about 500....

It would be neat to see how well a new crop of .25s with 1-8twist barrels and bullets that match do. But again for what most .25s are used for, they are much more effective than they are offten given credit for being.
Click to expand...
Based on my own experiences, at 500 yds the differences will be negligible, EXCEPT maybe with that 6 wildcat, and otherwise, depending on YOUR dedication, the differences MAY be attributable to shooter bad day disease, obviously you MUST test very extensively, like for hours and hours to get conclusive results. This is all under ideal conditions, now depending on the actual bullet in question, the crosswinds will help illustrate the differences nicely, at 500 yds my .243, .300wm, and .22-250 are not night and day different when loaded properly, but with a lil wind, the drift of the .243 is easiest to adjust for unless I run the nasty heavies in the .300, but then I sacrifice velocity and that's a different book altogether.
 
VoodooMountain; Thanks for posting that very intesesting Ron Spomer article. I've been a .25-06 fan ever since the early 1970's when it was still a recent factory offering and not a wildcat anymore. Knew a couple guys who had custom .25-06's built and they really did shoot. Finally got my first ever .25-06 in 1997 by winning a Ruger Mod. 77 target rifle in a raffle. I was in 257 heaven. Like Loon Wulf mentioned, the Ballistic Coefficient (B.C.) isn't really a deciding factor when you look at the distance most big game animals are taken at. I made the longest big game shot of my life on a Wyoming proghorn with that 25-06 back in 2003 at a good 325 yards with a handload featuring a Sierra 117 gr. Pro-Hunter bullet ( B.C. of .388 IIRC ) driven at an average 3128 fps. for a one shot deal. The bullets may not have the highest B.C. but at most normal hunting distances that most normal hunters can handle those bullets still do their job. The 25-06 is more common in open country because it just plain works well in that environment despite the lower B.C.'s of 25 cal. bullets. I guess what the 25-06 bullets lack in B.C. they make up for in higher velocity.
 
I loaded the Sierra Game King 115gr. back in the days I loaded my own. Flat and fast worked great in Texas ranch country.
 
There are several things wrong with the Outdoor Life article.

They compared a mild 6.5 Creed factory load to top end hand loads in the 25-06. If you're going to compare top end loads for one cartridge, then do if for both of them. Top end loads for the 6.5 will shoot a 143 gr bullet to 2850 fps, 2900 fps from longer than normal barrels. When you do that the 6.5 Creedmoor looks a lot better.

In 2017 flat trajectory simply isn't nearly as important as it used to be. Modern optics and range finders more than make up the difference.

The 6.5 burns 40-45 gr of powder, the 25-06 burns 55-60 gr of powder down a smaller, much longer, heavier tube. Which will last longer? The 25-06 has never been noted to excel in accuracy, the 6.5 does.

It is impact velocity that kills, not muzzle velocity. Beyond 300-400 yards the much heavier 6.5 bullet is faster even though it started much slower.

Speeds also has disadvantages. Around 2800 down to 1800 fps at impact is ideal with most bullets. Anytime impact speeds are over 2800 fps you start to have problems with bullet performance. The copper bullets are the only ones I'd trust over 3000 fps Once you start looking at 25 caliber "HUNTING" bullets designed to perform at 3000 fps impact you see BC's and long range performance drop considerably.

Depending on bullet choice the 25-06 can be effective at either close range or long range. But not both, at least not using the same bullet. The 6.5 starts out at about the optimal impact velocity and will still impact at faster speeds down range to ensure proper bullet expansion and penetration.

At short and medium range velocity is king, bc dosent matter that much.
Click to expand...

BC can matter at close range. It isn't just about trajectory. High BC bullets allow bullets to leave the muzzle at moderate velocity where they stay together on game at close range and still impact at faster speeds for optimal bullet performance at longer ranges. And do it in lighter rifles with less recoil.

Fact is all 3 rounds work. But when the complete package is considered I'd take the 6.5 over the other 2 ten times out of 10.
 
I bought a beauty of a Weatherby Vanguard VGX in .25-06 Rem, back in 1986. The factory target was a cloverleaf and so were reloads.

Then, like a dummy, I sold it and bought a Weatherby Mark V Deluxe .257 Wea Mag. I used 100 grain projectiles in both because of the blistering velocity. I used that .257 Wea Mag for a one-shot kill on a Michigan whitetail at 525 yards.

As a side-note, Roy Weatherby's favorite round was the .257, and he used it to harvest several dangerous game including Cape buffalo. So, apparently a .25 can have excellent penetration too.

Still, given cost of ammo, my favorite quarter-bore is the .25-06. They are mericiless on everything from varmints to big game.

JMHO,

Geno
 
I've had a tikka 25-06 since 2004. It's a neat cartridge because of its duel varmint/medium game capability. It's pretty much a 130% scale 243. It will drive 87 grain varmint hollow points really fast and flat, and it can shoot 120 grain soft points for deer and elk sized game to. If a guy could only have one rifle it wouldn't be a bad choice. Just like the 243 it does burn out barrels. I have the rcbs bore gauge to prove it.
 
Well my bore gauge says it's shot out, but the targets still say it's the same .6-.7 moa gun as the day I bought it. Im not sure on round count but I think I have about 1500 rounds through it and the rifling starts 1/4" farther out than new. The gun is highly sentimental to me so I will rebarrel it when groups open up over 1-1/4 or so though I suspect that will take awhile. I have a lot of 25-06 brass so I might keep it 25-06 though at the moment I would rather make it a 270 or 30-06.
 
In addition to the issues jmr40 pointed out there is another inaccuracy at the beginning of the article that caused me to tune out:

"Both the 25-06 Remington and 270 Winchester were created by necking the 30-06 case to hold narrower bullets, .257” and .277”, respectively."

Not true. 25-06 is based on the 30-06 but the .270 is based on the 30-03. If you are going to write an article and quote facts, get them right.

My BIL texted me this picture Friday evening of an Axis he killed that afternoon at his farm.
W9z9buk.jpg
It was DRT with his 25-06, a Weatherby Mark V. The 25-06 is an excellent deer and antelope cartridge. It is one of many though. If you have a .243 do you need a 25-06? If you have a .260, 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5x55 do you need a 25-06? If you have a .270 do you need a 25-06? I'd say no. If you have rifles chambered in 6mm, 6.5mm and 6.8mm which I do, I'd say definitely no. If you have none of the above then I'd say get a 25-06 if it scratches your itch over the others.

I don't need a .257 caliber but I'd like to have one, it would be a .257 Weather Mag though.
 
jmr40 said:
BC can matter at close range. It isn't just about trajectory. High BC bullets allow bullets to leave the muzzle at moderate velocity where they stay together on game at close range and still impact at faster speeds for optimal bullet performance at longer ranges. And do it in lighter rifles with less recoil.

Fact is all 3 rounds work. But when the complete package is considered I'd take the 6.5 over the other 2 ten times out of 10.
Click to expand...

I agree, BC can and does make a difference especially when were talking about an extreme difference such as the two loads I have actual experience with. I ran data for in the .250AI and the 6.5CM. The 115 berger at 3100, and the 143 Eldx at 2800 (my own known velocities), respectively, thru hornadys balistics calculator.
Drop and drift are within two inches of each other out to 500yds, BUT again the 6.5 throwing a nearly 40 grain heavier bullet.
Also as Jmr states, the 6.5 launches at a much more sedate Velocity. I have made short range hits on our axis deer and mouflon/feral sheep hybrids with bergers, and Amaxs, Ive found the performance to be quite acceptable, BUT were i shooting at something larger and heavier I would opt for a tougher bullet.

But even using the Berger VLD, were not really comparing apples to apples, as the Bergers bc is pretty low at .483 (and still light and shortish for caliber), and the ELDx is VERY high (as well as being very long and heavy for caliber) for a hunting bullet at .625 (advertised)
If we were talking about 1-7/8 twist .25-06s, shooting 130-140grn vlds (which do exist, but they arnt common), the story would be different, but again inside of 500 yds only marginally so.
 
cdb1 said:
If you have a .243 do you need a 25-06? If you have a .260, 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5x55 do you need a 25-06? If you have a .270 do you need a 25-06?
Click to expand...
short answer YES!

Why, well when i figure out what to tell the wife when she ask, ill have an answer to that one too!:D

Thats a true statement as can be tho, theres really not alot of NEED for all the different calibers. There are a few that seem to garner more attention, be more popular, and those get the most development. REALLY the only reason to add something like a .25 cal is because you want one (or get a smoking hot deal on one).
 
To give a broad statement saying one round is better than another is really stupid. It's like saying a corvette is better than a chevy 3500 pickup. Better at what? Towing a gooseneck full of round bales or cruising around?

I think what a creedmore can do at 1000 yards with a very small powder load is really impressive. I also think what a 25/06 does to a coyote with a 90 gr TNT at 3500 fps is pretty awesome too. There is not a winner because both do something the other can't.
 
Though I don't condone lying, I don't consider substituting need for want a lie when it comes to firearms. Women seem to do it when it comes to clothes.

Husband: I want a 25-06.

Wife: I need these new blue shoes on sale.

Husband: I just counted, you have 16 pairs of blue shoes.

Wife: But these shoes will go with my Easter outfit, none of my blues shoes I have now will.

Husband: Come to think of it I do need a 25-06 because there is such a high resale on them I can sell it in five years and double my money. There is a great sale on them now at Master Blaster.
 
jmr40 said:
There are several things wrong with the Outdoor Life article.

They compared a mild 6.5 Creed factory load to top end hand loads in the 25-06. If you're going to compare top end loads for one cartridge, then do if for both of them. Top end loads for the 6.5 will shoot a 143 gr bullet to 2850 fps, 2900 fps from longer than normal barrels. When you do that the 6.5 Creedmoor looks a lot better.

In 2017 flat trajectory simply isn't nearly as important as it used to be. Modern optics and range finders more than make up the difference.

The 6.5 burns 40-45 gr of powder, the 25-06 burns 55-60 gr of powder down a smaller, much longer, heavier tube. Which will last longer? The 25-06 has never been noted to excel in accuracy, the 6.5 does.

It is impact velocity that kills, not muzzle velocity. Beyond 300-400 yards the much heavier 6.5 bullet is faster even though it started much slower.

Speeds also has disadvantages. Around 2800 down to 1800 fps at impact is ideal with most bullets. Anytime impact speeds are over 2800 fps you start to have problems with bullet performance. The copper bullets are the only ones I'd trust over 3000 fps Once you start looking at 25 caliber "HUNTING" bullets designed to perform at 3000 fps impact you see BC's and long range performance drop considerably.

Depending on bullet choice the 25-06 can be effective at either close range or long range. But not both, at least not using the same bullet. The 6.5 starts out at about the optimal impact velocity and will still impact at faster speeds down range to ensure proper bullet expansion and penetration.



BC can matter at close range. It isn't just about trajectory. High BC bullets allow bullets to leave the muzzle at moderate velocity where they stay together on game at close range and still impact at faster speeds for optimal bullet performance at longer ranges. And do it in lighter rifles with less recoil.

Fact is all 3 rounds work. But when the complete package is considered I'd take the 6.5 over the other 2 ten times out of 10.
Click to expand...

Much of what you typed needs qualification. The 25-06 doesn't use 55-60 grains of powder in heavy for caliber rounds and that is what you are comparing in your apples to apples comparison right? There's more of what you typed that is skewed.
 
Cdb1:

My wife let's me buy anything I want, because she gets dollar-for-dollar what I spend. She buys clothes; I buy firearms and ammo.

She even started to like firearms, especially "my" (now her favorite) S&W AR10. She also likes my (her second favorite) M70 .243 Win.

Here's how it goes, and yes, this is an honest quote:

"Let's go to the range. We can do something 'redneck' that you like, then we'll do something cultural, like the opera, that I like!"

:rofl: Geno
 
Geno said:
Cdb1:

My wife let's me buy anything I want, because she gets dollar-for-dollar what I spend. She buys clothes; I buy firearms and ammo.

She even started to like firearms, especially "my" (now her favorite) S&W AR10. She also likes my (her second favorite) M70 .243 Win.

Here's how it goes, and yes, this is an honest quote:

"Let's go to the range. We can do something 'redneck' that you like, then we'll do something cultural, like the opera, that I like!"

:rofl: Geno
Click to expand...
Then you go to the range and get a tummy ache right after you get back to the vehicle.
 
Ha! I'm only 35. But I grew up watching Hee Haw. Roy Clark and his Banjo. Grandpa Jones and his horrible jokes. Great music. Wholesome family fun. And then, there were the girls. Added just the right amount of (clears throat) "appeal"......Just like a nice hunting rifle in 25-06 or 6.5CM. Well...Not really. But the rifles will be beautiful long after the girls aren't.
 
Other than mediocre BCs, the downside of the 25-06 is short barrel life compared with the medium case capacity 6.5s (.260 Rem and smaller).

Sure, go with a 25-06 in a low volume hunting rifle. But for higher volumes or longer ranges, make mine a 260 Rem. I've burned out enough barrels.
 
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