30.06, cast bullet and how fast can I push it

[archeryrob]

I have asked before on other place and get the 1500 -1600 thing and I put gas checked, powder coated bullets with a mild 11bhn through at 2000 fps in the 30-30. I went with a harder bullet this time with my alloy and water quenched them. I just powder coated them and figure I'll drop maybe a little in hardness.

What is considered getting past safe on the load building in GRT? I am working on my ladder rounds for 30-06. Using cast rounds and will powder coat. Using NOE 165 grain mold and dropping rounds that average 158 and start at 16 -18 hardness and quenched 20 -22. Powder coated now and got two poorly coated I used for checking OAL in the gun that I will pull and test for hardness after the powder. [EDIT] The bullets are Gas checked.

I am most concerned with the top charge. Getting close to the Max -15%, is it okay like this? Is it pushing it too much, or just fine?

The top charge is 40 grains of 4227 and 48785 psi and max is listed at 58740. 2671.6 fps. ladders dropping .5 grains

The bottom starting load is 35.5 grains and 2458 fps.The bullet extends to the bottom of the flare almost, so I am not sure if that will affect powder space or not yet.

I plan to make ladder rounder with 4227 and 4198 and run both up to 2500 fps. I am hoping I get there and will compare all for accuracy and leading. Just looking for advice and opinions on top level charge, how fast you think I can get it and variations on the ladder. Its too damn cold to shooting the farm fields right now, so hoping to be ready late March early April before turkey season.

 

[AJC1]

My rounds with 4227 in 308 are way below pressure and I was getting 1900 on a fellow members crono with 19 grains with 150s. I am not tracking with the weight of your bullet and the described bhn. My bullets are 18 bhn and 164 grains. You must have a lot of tin in your mix. This is assuming were casting the same noe 165. At almost full pressure I was thinking you would be at least 2300 fps.....

 

[Charlie98]

My biggest question would be... did you slug your bore, and are the bullets sized to that bore? Trying to push those bullets over 2000fps will tell you in short order if they are right. I understand the powder coat adds a little to the equation.

Personally, since you are reaching for 2500fps, I would just start with IMR (or H, you didn't say...) 4198, and leave the 4227 for the lower velocity stuff.

 

[archeryrob]

It is all IMR

 

[Charlie98]

I plugged your loads into QuickLoad... I get the same basic results you did, so I think you are on the right path. AJC1 is correct, too... I would load a 3 or 5 round tester at your starting charge and put them across a chronograph just to get a baseline velocity, and then work up your ladders from there. Compare your velocity readings with your projected velocity expectations to see if you are generally in line. Cast can behave differently in some bores, and powder coated still more. If your actual velocity is far higher or far lower than anticipated, you'll have to tap the brakes and reevaluate.

 

[archeryrob]

Its a Bergara B-14 hunter and I just slugged it twice. Started with 2 pure lead bullets at .310 and they came through mostly .307 and got a few .3075 but rare. Bullets are sized .309 but read more 308 so they will fill the bore.

 

[Charlie98]

Generally speaking, you want cast at .001" over bore, .309" should be your go to... but, seriously, I would a velocity tester of 3-5 rounds to establish a velocity baseline. If that tests OK, then maybe 5 or 10 rounds to see if the accuracy is there before getting all excited and loading a bunch up. If those bullets are as hard as you say, .001" may not be enough.

I forgot to ask... but just assumed... these are not gas checked, correct?

 

[Seedy Character]

I load powder coated in .30-06 to 2600 fps with 4064 and have no problems.

My buddy has been loading to 2800, with no problems.

.309 powder coated bullets. No GC

 

[BWS]

Lee 150,as cast body runs right at .310,nose drops around .3002/3.

Lube only the little space over GC,no more! 3-1 BW to vaseline.

Loaded over starting JB,book load of Varget.

Right much more to it,but that's the basic recipe. The 4198's are great,up through mid range loads but once you really start mashing the gas pedal,you'll do better with slower powders. 4895,Varget(4064) work good for me in up to starting JB book loads. Once past that,I've had some screaming,and stupid accurate loads with 4831.... 85g Saeco 6mmRem,and a 60g RCBS in 22-250. Haven't gotten that hot with '06 because of recoil. Good luck with your project.

 

[35 Whelen]

Your limit is the bullet itself. It doesn't matter if it's powder coated or not, generally speaking, cast lead bullets don't stand up very well to the rotational forces present once velocities exceed around 2000 fps; consistent accuracy goes out the window. Some exceptions I've found are rifles whose barrels use slower twists. I run traditionally lubed, gas-checked cast bullets in M1 Carbines with their 1/20" twist barrels up to 2000 fps with accuracy in many cases exceeding that of jacketed loads. A fella on the Cast Bullet Association forum was running cast bullets 2400 fps out of a .222 Remington with decent accuracy, but they typically have 1/14" twist barrels.
In the 30-06 with its 1/10" twist I get the most consistent cast bullet accuracy with loads in the 1400-1500 fps range. In one of my .308's my hunting load average just over 1850 fps and groups 5 shots under 1.5" @ 100 yds.

You might want to check out the Cast Bullet Association forum. Lots of knowledge over there.

35W

 

[archeryrob]

I load powder coated in .30-06 to 2600 fps with 4064 and have no problems.

What hardness of lead are you using and how many grains of powder, so I can look at a reference? According to GRT I need 50 grains to exceed 2600

Maybe I need to try a slower powder also. More bullets to toss downrange in the spring.

 

[AJC1]

What hardness of lead are you using and how many grains of powder, so I can look at a reference? According to GRT I need 50 grains to exceed 2600

Maybe I need to try a slower powder also. More bullets to toss downrange in the spring.

2600 is faster than I have ever had good groups with. The amount of resigning effort above 2200 fps is like dropping that tenth of a second on a 5 second drag car. It's possible but not easy. I'd be glad to share this journey and see how the process goes.

 

[Charlie98]

Your limit is the bullet itself.

I tend to agree with that... and there are a number of facets to that comment, as 35 mentioned.

Maybe I need to try a slower powder also.

You only mentioned IMR4227 and IMR4198, which are good cast bullet powders. IMR4198 will get you to 2600fps, but that's maxing the load out, or nearly so. I would normally recommend something like IMR3031, but IMR4895 would work well enough in the .30-06, of course.

I regularly drive my commercially cast and gas checked .348WCF 200grn bullets at 2200fps, and those out of a 20" barrel. I have gone as slow as H4831 with those, but I'm back to IMR3031, which just seems to work the best to get them over 2000fps with consistent accuracy.

Plugging IMR3031 into QuickLoad tells me 2600fps should be easy, while staying under 15% Max and giving you reasonable case fill, although IMR4895 will do it, too.

 

[archeryrob]

I have some 3031 in house for loading 30-30 so I can try it for a few rounds.

 

[archeryrob]

I guess I never listed it, but the bullets are all gas checked.

Looks like 50 grains of IMR3031 gets me the top speed, if the bullets hold up for it. Just seemed like a lot, but if it works, its better than buying premium ammo.

Anyone know of GRT can print out ladder rounds? Maybe I have to drop it all in an excel sheet to use as a chart for reloading?

 

[Seedy Character]

.30-06 Sierra 150 FB SP with 52.4 gr 4064
120 gr Powder Coated with 48.5 gr 4064
or 50.0 gr 4831
16.4 gr Trail Boss is a fun load.

 

[archeryrob]

I ran my ladder for 3031 from below -15% with 50 grains which is starting at over 2700. I would work up from the bottom, but don't wish to load rounds that might be way to hot for the bullets. I found out already these gas checked bullets leave the damn gas check in the neck if you try and pull them.

45.5 grains is starting over 2500 @ 2532fps and 50 grains at 2767 Just wondering if I am starting too high and fast with this.

 

[AJC1]

I ran my ladder for 3031 from below -15% with 50 grains which is starting at over 2700. I would work up from the bottom, but don't wish to load rounds that might be way to hot for the bullets. I found out already these gas checked bullets leave the damn gas check in the neck if you try and pull them.

45.5 grains is starting over 2500 @ 2532fps and 50 grains at 2767 Just wondering if I am starting too high and fast with this.

I had gas checks stay behind in a strait wall case. The only way to save the brass was to shoot them. I wonder what the velosity was with 13.5 grains of 2400 behind a 5 grain gas check.

 

[Charlie98]

I ran my ladder for 3031 from below -15% with 50 grains which is starting at over 2700. I would work up from the bottom, but don't wish to load rounds that might be way to hot for the bullets. I found out already these gas checked bullets leave the damn gas check in the neck if you try and pull them.

45.5 grains is starting over 2500 @ 2532fps and 50 grains at 2767 Just wondering if I am starting too high and fast with this.

I think that's a bit high... yes. I would start with about 40grn IMR3031, that should give you a reasonable 70% case fill and about 2200fps, which would be a good jumping off point to start your ladder. It's good you have gas checks... that will help some.

Why do I want you to start at a lower velocity? Because I want you to work up into the velocity with that bullet, watching for your groups starting to come apart or other maladies that can plague high velocity cast. If you have a good lower velocity base established, when things go wrong, you can return there and work up again.

 

[AJC1]

I think that's a bit high... yes. I would start with about 40grn IMR3031, that should give you a reasonable 70% case fill and about 2200fps, which would be a good jumping off point to start your ladder. It's good you have gas checks... that will help some.

Why do I want you to start at a lower velocity? Because I want you to work up into the velocity with that bullet, watching for your groups starting to come apart or other maladies that can plague high velocity cast. If you have a good lower velocity base established, when things go wrong, you can return there and work up again.

When using magnum pistol powders the accuracy wheels come off fast. Half a grain at 23 grains can go from great to shotgun patterns. I have a bunch of 4198 test loads ready but yet to jerk the trigger so I expect disaster to have a bigger spread.

 

[archeryrob]

Maybe I'll start from 40 - 45.5 and see if failures come. Then higher later on until failures do happen. It should be a good learning experience.

 

[Charlie98]

Nice! Honestly, with cast rifle, I ladder by .5grn, too.

 

[Seedy Character]

I I found out already these gas checked bullets leave the damn gas check in the neck if you try and pull them.

And THAT is why I shoot PC and no GC

 

[archeryrob]

So you are saying size and seat he GC and then powder coat and size again? I was powder coating then seating and sizing

 

[AJC1]

So you are saying size and seat he GC and then powder coat and size again? I was powder coating then seating and sizing

The gas checks go on easier first and the follow up PC helps hold them on.