.300 Win Mag ARs - Where are we going?

[cstarr3]

Hi All! I wanted to get your guys' opinions on .300 WM AR style rifles.

The first long action AR I had ever heard of was the Noreen BN-36, a .30-06 AR-styled rifle that is now available in .270 Winchester and .25-06. The first .300 Winchester Magnum AR rifle I ever heard of was the Nemo Omen. That was not long ago. Then came Falkor Defense's Petra. I am to understand that Falkor is now owned by or merged with Nemo, but I am not sure. Google it if you want more info on that. Recently, POF decided to enter the new .300 WM AR market with their P300. It is new enough that POF's website says "coming soon" when it refers to the P300. I am not certain if any of these three .300 WM guns share common parts, as they are all new enough that patents are still probably held on all of them by their respective companies. But I believe they can all take Nemo mags.

Now let's turn to ammo. The .300 WM is based on the .375 H&H, just like many other cartridges, but is supposed to fit in long action rifles, i.e., anything that can shoot .30-06. The 7mm Remington Magnum is another cartridge of such a description, as is the .338 Win Mag. These cartridges have their granddaddy's .532" rim. Recently Nosler announced the introduction of the 33 Nosler, which claims will send a 265 gr. .338 bullet 25 fps faster than the legendary - nay, mythical - .338 Lapua. It is based on the .404 Jeffrey case, the same as other Nosler rounds. With a rim diameter of .534", it would probably not be too difficult to fit a bolt for the Nosler rounds. The problem might come with making sure that a chamber with thinner walls could handle the high pressures. I am totally ignorant when it comes to re-chambering rifles, so I will let those knowledgeable on such things volunteer information on the ability to re-chamber a .300 WM rifle to .28, .30, or .33 Nosler. Putting on a barrel and bolt to convert one of these guns to .30-06 (or a cartridge based on the .30-06) might be easier. But again, I cannot be sure. With something like the .33 Nosler, if it lives up to its claims, a long action AR could probably be adapted to be an even better long-range option than the .300 WM. A .30-06 or .270 Winchester AR could probably find a place in the hearts of a lot of hunters.

So, in my opinion, there is plenty that long action AR rifles could do. They are incredibly pricey, but that could change with more competition. Which brings me to my next thought. There are many AR manufacturers out there. A lot of them are good, and many considered great rifle manufacturers. I am wondering if a company like Barrett will decide to take up the challenge of a long action AR. They already have long range rifles as well as AR platform rifles. LWRC, which makes good piston ARs, also has their REPR line, which is supposed to be a precision rifle. They also make rifles that already have a high price tag, so a pricey .300 WM AR might not be too far out of their way. But would that be too much competition? Would that be too many guns chasing too few dollars?

So here is where I invite you to express your opinion on the subject. Are the long-action .300 WM AR designs here to stay, or will they be a flash in the pan? Will the number of manufacturers steadily grow, will it balloon, or are we likely to see only a few more entries, if any at all, into this market? Will the new long action designs end up like other ARs, being chambered in a myriad of calibers, or will .300 WM and 7mm Remington Mag be pretty much all we see? Do you see this kind of rifle's use ever expanding into hunting, competition, or others, or is it pretty much a one-trick pony? Do you think that the price these rifles demand is built in to the platform, or will we slowly see the prices drop as the technology becomes more well worn, until we end up with a $1000 Smith and Wesson M&P300?

I hope to hear from you guys. Thanks.
-cstarr3

 

[Coal Dragger]

These things weigh a ton, and cost a lot.

I don't expect to see them displace other designs for hunting or long range shooting for most serious users.

 

[bang_bang]

I've shot a Nemo 300 mag before. Awesome rifle, gets dirty quick, weighs a ton.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

AR-10s available for people who want a 30-06 type of cartridge in an AR. Anything bigger than that, and I don't see a reason to not just get a bolt action.

 

[jmr40]

Now let's turn to ammo. The .300 WM is based on the .375 H&H, just like many other cartridges, but is supposed to fit in long action rifles,

The 300 H&H magnum is based on the 375 H&H magnum and they were originally used in a Magnum length receiver. The 300 WBY Mag is based on a 300 H&H with the shoulder moved forward. You can fire 300 H&H in a 300 WBY chamber.. The 300 and 338 WM has a shorter case to fit and function in a true long, (30-06) length action. Most of the H&H chambered rifles you see today are used in modified long action rifles. They machine one of the receiver bridges shorter and modify the magazine box and follower in order to make the longer cases function. The 300 WSM is even shorter, and a little fatter, but will fit in a true short action.

Given enough money and time most anything is possible. That doesn't make it practical. Sure, it is possible to manufacture an oversize AR in 300 WM or any other cartridge. But what does it really offer in advantages over a bolt gun. You can put together a 5.56 AR weighing 6-7 lbs with under 5 ft lbs of recoil. With that little recoil multiple rapid fire shots can be fired fairly accurately. A 300 WM has closer to 30 ft lbs of recoil and in an AR platform will weigh 10-12, maybe 15 lbs after mounting optics. It might be possible to put a lot of lead down range in a hurry, but with that much recoil not with any accuracy. With that much recoil an 8 lb bolt gun is going to be just as fast if accuracy is needed and a whole lot easier to lug around.

 

[Rollis R. Karvellis]

The technology is out there so now it will be a factor in the decision making process of a shooter when they spec out a rifle. Though the number of people who need the quick follow up that such a rifle offer is a large handful.

Being able to do mag dumps with three dollar a round ammunition may be neat, but will grow old quickly, so the gwiz factor will be limited.

I think the quality sub one thousand dollar LAAR will be hard to achieve. The reason the quality seven hundred dollar AR market exist today is because of the volume of sales allowing the manufacturers to have a narrow profit margin.

If I could have a thousand dollar sub minute LAAR in 7mmRM, I would be on that in a minute.

 

[Acera]

I like the American idea that everything can be hotrodded. Whether it's a car or gun design. Pushing the limits of what a practical design is capable of is truly a good thing.

Heck, some may remember that they once made a M1 Garand in .458 Win Mag.


.

 

[Varminterror]

Nemo will also do custom barrels in 458win mag. I've been incredibly tempted to pick one up!

 

[Varminterror]

I missed the part about sub-$1000 for a magnum length AR... Not gonna happen. It's not easy to find an AR-10/LR-308 platform rifle today for under $1,200-1,400, many of them much more than that.

As a reference point, the Nemo Omen rifles run between $4,500, $7,500, up to $9,500 for their models.

I've also shot one in 7mm RM, and although I REALLY enjoy the 300wm version, I'd really like to get a 7RM version.

 

[cstarr3]

Great replies, I love getting insight from other people that can help me shift perspectives. It seems that the general consensus is that the long action ARs will probably never be hot sellers at the gun stores, mostly due to high cost and limited usefulness. I do tend to get my head in the clouds when I think about interesting gun ideas, and it takes a major dose of cold-water rationality to bring me back to terra firma. The point of the inherent cost of the platform is particularly well noted.

On the subject of recoil, I have seen some shooting videos and reviews of the Nemo Omen, and it is pretty common to attribute mild recoil to that platform. The Falkor Petra actually has some videos of people shooting it one-handed, not braced against the body, and it doesn't seem to recoil that much. I don't know if there is something magical about the AR-type design or if they just engineered the begeezes out of it. I have no idea what the P300 recoil is supposed to be like. I have a Savage Model 10 .300 WSM that wants to take a trip to Canada every time I pull the trigger. Sometimes I want to put it on an MDT Tac21. Not for the ergonomics or the ability to get the thing fixed up to mall-ninja levels of superfluity, but simply for the extra weight that I here those things can add to a gun. But as it stands, I'd never shoot it one handed.

One of the things I didn't consider is the lack of useful shooting ranges for .300 Win Mag chambered rifles. I have a .308 and can hit steel at 550 yards pretty easily with the right ammunition (I used to shoot SSA 168 gr. match stuff before they were bought out by Nosler, and that stuff was awesome through my rifle). It has enough energy at the 500 yard targets that I managed to knock over a steel ram silhouette target last time I was out (I don't know if the target was already off balance or if that is the normal reaction at that distance). In any case, my local shooting range doesn't have the ability to provide with any targets farther than 500 meters, so I am not sure if I could really even use a .300 WM in any way more meaningful than my .308. That made me think that most people might be in my situation, where long, flat, uninterrupted, swaths of land that can be used for target practice are in short supply. Also, Elk and Moose are not common or non-existent in my neck of the woods, and all the bears are small-to-medium black bears. If enough people shared this predicament, which many do, it would probably put a damper on demand.

As for a large caliber, long range rifle with plenty of recoil impulse, the .50 BMG takes the cake. And yet we have the M82A1 out there (not to mention the lesser known BA-50 and BFG-50A). Granted, it is not selling like hotcakes, and that may have to do with the price of the rifle, the price of the ammo, the fact that they are illegal in California and some countries, that they have little practical purpose for most people, or a combination of all these, but it is still around. And if that is one extreme of the semi-auto rifle spectrum, and the standard AR pattern is the other, than I guess the long action AR is closer towards the slow-selling and expensive .50 BMG end of that spectrum. So, yeah, I guess it would be a pipe dream to hope that there would be one in the closet of every red-blooded American. However, maybe the market could support a few more manufacturers.

I can see that long action ARs are never going to surpass standard ARs in popularity. If for nothing else, the price of the platform and ammo. I can't say how popular they will be. I can at least say that I, personally, want one, and having competition in the market is usually good for prospective buyers. So, hope springs eternal.

Again, thanks for the responses.
-cstarr3

 

[LoonWulf]

I could perhaps see some use for them. A heavy semi auto 300 with a good break, and a solid shooting position, could put lead on target pretty quickly.
I should say Ive never shot one. Ive had some experience with a BAR in 7mm rem with a boss system on it. That gun was a bit faster than my bolt gun in 7mm, but weighed over a pound more. If i didnt have to lug it, and had lots of targets, then id like one that weighed 13-15lbs

 

[Varminterror]

On the subject of recoil, I have seen some shooting videos and reviews of the Nemo Omen, and it is pretty common to attribute mild recoil to that platform. The Falkor Petra actually has some videos of people shooting it one-handed, not braced against the body, and it doesn't seem to recoil that much. I don't know if there is something magical about the AR-type design or if they just engineered the begeezes out of it.

The recoil with the Omen is very light even with full house 208grn loads, largely due to the weight, but also the engineering. They're all compensated and all very heavy, which both help a lot, but the "bouncing bolt Carrier" design really soaks up a lot of recoil. Instead of a rubber bumper at the tail of the carrier, there's a spring loaded carrier damper. In shooting them side by side, the 300WM Omen recoils less than my AR-10's.



It's a very limited application firearm - how often does a practical application call for high fire rate, long range shooting with high impact? Wanting one for defense is an entirely different game - as it does mean your defensible perimeter is all that much longer. The 300wm Omen are more expensive for plinking than an AR-10, let alone AR-15, and VERY mean to brass. Every one of them I have seen has been a Sub-MOA rifle, but not in the same ballpark as an equivalently priced bolt gun, let alone equivalently weighted bolt gun. I've shot to 800yrds, and it holds its own, better on average than most factory bolt rifles, but again - not as accurate as a much less expensive custom bolt build.

But I'm still very glad they're on the market, and for those of us responsible civilians who want one and are irresponsible enough with disposable income, the niche market exists to sustain them.

 

[cougar1717]

IMHO, the long action AR pattern rifles will remain a niche product. They are the next evolutionary step to continue to refresh a known product family with similar tooling that still retains a good profit margin. We've already seen 5.56mm AR-15's become old hat. Then it was piston conversions/rifles (for reliability and cleanliness!) Then we've seen every possible kind of cartridge that can fit in an AR-15 action. I still feel for those who bought a 30 Rem AR rifle! Then it moved to AR-10's or LR-308's. Then it was 9mm and 7.62x39's. Then it was intermediate sized lowers for 7.62x39 and specialty lowers for 9mm. And now it's making an action long enough to fit existing, popular hunting rifle cartridges. We are almost done - there's not much left to evolve.
While it is awesome to see the BCG technology, critical components to a system are also the compensator and adjustable gas block - not much different from the advances of JP Rifles for competition years ago.
The cost is going to be prohibitory for many since the manufacturers need to recoup the design expense. That is, unless you get one for endorsement or promotion on your TV show or youtube channel! For hunting, the weight is the biggest problem. Why lug one of these around when you could spend half the money (or less) on a lightweight 6lb bolt action? Most people don't need more than four shots to take an elk, deer, sheep, etc.
The other issue is good luck reloading for it. The LR-308 is hard enough on brass. Throw a cartridge belt in the mix and add 30-some grains of powder over the 308, and let's bend some case rims! But, I suppose that if you're buying one already, you can afford the ammo and are not that concerned in recovering brass.
Don't get me wrong, I like these rifles, and they are becoming more popular, but I still think that they will not be able to have a business model where they can make a little profit off of a lot of people. They will have to make a good profit off of the relatively low number of enthusiasts and early adopters and the price will remain high.

 

[Rollis R. Karvellis]

Using the long action for a bolt gun will probably be the more likely scenario for large numbers of the magnum calibers in an AR platform.