308 cast bullet fed from the magazine misses the chamber mouth and jams

[wish-a-lot]

This is the full story.
A cartridge Hornady .308 trimmed, sized, chamfered and deburred.
Full sizing die was set by touching the ram then 3/4 turn more.
powder added. Cast lee 30 cal 150 gr. (actual 149 to 149.9) seating depth so OAL was 2.65.
Made 170 Gr. Complete OAL of 2.750 but when 150s continually jammed I didn't bother trying them.
What's causing this?
The Rifle is a Browning Exclipse Target with a 28" barrel.
Please help me.

 

[PapaG]

How were they jamming? Hanging up on feed ramp, edge of chamber or just not able to leave the magazine? Will they chamber if you drop them on the follower and close the bolt? We need a little more info.

 

[243winxb]

If the nose of the bullet is hitting, before the magazine releases the round, try a shorter COL.

This bullet could be at 2.525" COL if needed in 308. But most dont like the gas check to be below the neck.

 

[wish-a-lot]

Once the magazine lets go of the bullet the cartridge is at an angle and the bolt just hits it and it goes nowhere. Manual feed is fine.
I did try dropping the OAL to 2.50 but that gave me another problem with the 170 grain and 150 grain bullet. The GC was crimped. The mouth of the case had a slight flare. At that depth the copper GC on both was below the neck which resulted in the bullet dropping right through into the case 90% of the time. I put this phenomena down to the copper GC spreading the neck and the neck not elastic enough to return to hug the neck. The brass is PMC (South Korean).
The lead was put through the sizer along with installing the GC

 

[stoky]

In a stagger feed Savage model 10, if I don't vigorously run the bolt, the round comes out of the magazine and ends up cockeyed in the action behind the chamber. This happens only on the first round out of a full magazine and only if I don't positively work the bolt.

 

[Sunray]

2.750" is too short. 2.650" is way too short. Use 2.800".
The rifle giving you the same grief with jacketed bullets?
Your bolt action, internal mag, Browning Exclipse Target is probably just disliking the idea of cast bullets. Especially short OAL's. However, like stoky says a bit more vigour might help.

 

[Big7]

I will say this just from common sense. I DO NOT LOAD "cast your own" boolits..
I would like to get into it before I get to old. maybe happen, maybe not. I have SO many
premium projectiles, I may never shoot them up.

But... From knowing how things work, being in manufacturing for over 35 years,
here's what I would look for #1:

Check the angle on the feed ramp.
Even the "best" lead bullets are soft, compared to jacketed.
Very little exposed lead on modern projectiles. (exception to rim-fire noted)

If I had to hazard a guess here, I would say that the soft lead is hitting at the top of the chamber.

Take some Dykem steel blue (comes in red also) and put some on.
Manually cycle the action and look for marks. That will tell you where the problem is.

Dykem IS NOT the same as "high spot blue". It dries hard. High spot is not for this application.
It is soft and never dries.

Push comes to shove, a Marks-all marker will work.

If you post some pics, maybe I can help you out. I load a BUNCH.. Just not got into casting yet.
Shape of the projectile and the shape of your chamber, throat, etc, is where the problem is.
Shouldn't be much of a problem to figure it out.

Shoot a post or a PM if you like. More than happy to help.

 

[wish-a-lot]

If I load to Max OAL the 170 Gr. is only held in place by the GC. Seeing as the factory loads never seem to have a metplat they slide in even if they're a little high.
If I go to an OAL of 2.50 then the 170 gr. drops into cartridge by it's own weight 90% of the time.Does anyone who uses Lee 150 gr. in a 308 know the cartridge OAL that works?

I will say this just from common sense. I DO NOT LOAD "cast your own" boolits..
I would like to get into it before I get to old. maybe happen, maybe not. I have SO many
premium projectiles, I may never shoot them up.

But... From knowing how things work, being in manufacturing for over 35 years,
here's what I would look for #1:

Check the angle on the feed ramp.
Even the "best" lead bullets are soft, compared to jacketed.
Very little exposed lead on modern projectiles. (exception to rim-fire noted)

If I had to hazard a guess here, I would say that the soft lead is hitting at the top of the chamber.

Take some Dykem steel blue (comes in red also) and put some on.
Manually cycle the action and look for marks. That will tell you where the problem is.

Dykem IS NOT the same as "high spot blue". It dries hard. High spot is not for this application.
It is soft and never dries.

Push comes to shove, a Marks-all marker will work.

If you post some pics, maybe I can help you out. I load a BUNCH.. Just not got into casting yet.
Shape of the projectile and the shape of your chamber, throat, etc, is where the problem is.
Shouldn't be much of a problem to figure it out.

Shoot a post or a PM if you like. More than happy to help.

 

[wish-a-lot]

don't have pics at this time and it may be a while before I can get some.
Thanks for your input.

 

[wish-a-lot]

2.750" is too short. 2.650" is way too short. Use 2.800".
The rifle giving you the same grief with jacketed bullets?
Your bolt action, internal mag, Browning Exclipse Target is probably just disliking the idea of cast bullets. Especially short OAL's. However, like stoky says a bit more vigour might help.

The 150 Grain is touching the lands at a seating depth of 2.605. I know this because it is unusually difficult to close the bolt. I believe the ogive is touching at this point so trying the 170 grains at 2.75 would be impossible to close.

 

[PapaG]

There is no way that properly sized cases and gas checked bullets should "drop in the case". About the only way that could happen is if the bullets are way undersized and the neck is over expanded. Agree, don't have gas check below neck. Size to .309 or even .310. I have gone to .311 for a few rifles.
Are these the Lee flat points? I have shot thousands of cast round nose and more than a few flatties from 308, 30-06, 30-40, 30-30, 7.7 rifles and not had a problem like yours. Is the magazine releasing the cartridge too soon?

 

[dgod]

How fast are you trying to get your cast 150's to go?? I cast a lot of 30 cal 30-30/308/30-06/300AAC/300wm, 9mm, 45ACP & 45 LC. I occasionally use GC's on fast bullets, but they aren't needed for slower bullets, as there is not enough heat to cause leading.

 

[243winxb]

The magazine lips may need adjustment , but lf polymer , i dont think its possible?

A crimp on GC (copper) may spring back more then lead after sizing. In my day, they didnt crimp on.

Bullet diameter should be around .310" I used a Lyman M die to open the case mouth. No crimp.

 

[rsrocket1]

Try seating the bullet to 0.3" seat depth. All the lee cast 30 cal bullets are shaped and spaced the same on the bottom. I have the 113, 170 and 200g bullets and seat them all to 0.3" SD. That puts the top lube groove just above the rim and the GC well within the neck and not below. It also puts the front band right up against the lands in my 788 which greatly aids in the centering of the bullet and helps accuracy.

 

[243winxb]

All the lee cast 30 cal bullets are shaped and spaced the same on the bottom.

Interesting. Are they bore riders? If so, they would fall into the case, if seated too deep.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Seems to me the gas check is not sizing down as suggested and the brass is not bouncing back when the bullet is seating. What difference in size is it at the gas check and the bullet between the lube grooves? What size are your cast bullets before sizing? Lead mixture/ Hardness? Sizing die adjusted right and getting good pressure to properly resize the necks ? Finally do you anneal your brass?

 

[wish-a-lot]

The magazine lips may need adjustment , but lf polymer , i dont think its possible?

A crimp on GC (copper) may spring back more then lead after sizing. In my day, they didnt crimp on.

Bullet diameter should be around .310" I used a Lyman M die to open the case mouth. No crimp.

Thank you, you are the first one to give me a seating depth. While I see that working for the 150 Grain, it would be too shallow for the 170 grain. I hope by seating them both to an OAL of 2.58 will eliminate the problem.

 

[dgod]

View attachment 229776
9mm RN & HP, 451 RN x2, 451 HP GC & 451HP, 452 RNFP, 151gr RNFP GC 309, 309 RNFP, 200gr RN 309, All lead is 14.5 BRN Hardness. I use Gas checks if I expect to exceed 1500 fps. Bullets are (from Left) 9mm, 45ACP, 45ACP HP, 45LC, 300 WinMag, 30-06, 308, 300AAC.

This sure makes shooting A LOT cheaper..

 

[wish-a-lot]

Seems to me the gas check is not sizing down as suggested. What difference in size is it at the gas check and the bullet between the lube grooves? What size are your cast bullets before sizing?

I also question the sizing. I follow the instructions of putting the bullet and GC through a sizing die and they come out as .309. We can't talk accuracy here or about .310 or .311 being better and more accurate because I tried sizing them through a .313 die and the GCs fell off. I think I'll leave the bullets cast size (.311) and crimp the GC by using a .270 crimp die and shortening a 270 shell to accomplish this.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

If your not sizing it enough the neck will have a taper to it and only on the tip of the case mouth will hold any tension.

 

[dgod]

My Lube-A-Matic will size and seat Gas Checks at the same time.

 

[243winxb]

Bore riding cast bullets are 2 different diameters. The bottom where the GC is, is sized to .309" . The top is as cast diameter and smaller.

When a bore rider is chambered, it may produce resistence/harder to chamber. The lands may engrave/mark the bullet. As it should.

If a bore rider is seated to deep, short COL, the bullet may fall into the case.

Lee molds are regulated using an alloy of 10 to 1, lead , tin. If antimony is in the alloy, the bore riding part will be larger in diameter, as cast. Harder to chamber as its not sized.


This would produce hard bolt closing. Not a "feeding" from the magazine problem.

Hope this helps.

 

[wish-a-lot]

Bore riding cast bullets are 2 different diameters. The bottom where the GC is, is sized to .309" . The top is as cast diameter and smaller.

When a bore rider is chambered, it may produce resistence/harder to chamber. The lands may engrave/mark the bullet. As it should.

If a bore rider is seated to deep, short COL, the bullet may fall into the case.

Lee molds are regulated using an alloy of 10 to 1, lead , tin. If antimony is in the alloy, the bore riding part will be larger in diameter, as cast. Harder to chamber as its not sized.


This would produce hard bolt closing. Not a "feeding" from the magazine problem.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for your feedback.
My initial problem is the bullet not entering the chamber. I can ensure the lead is larger than the GC but it still puts the bullet seat into the shoulder area.

 

[wish-a-lot]

If the nose of the bullet is hitting, before the magazine releases the round, try a shorter COL.

This bullet could be at 2.525" COL if needed in 308. But most dont like the gas check to be below the neck.

I am going to try 2.580 seating depth and the 2.50 for 150 Grain. See if that works. I'm hoping for a consensus of Max. OAL for the 150 and 170s
Thank you for that feedback.

 

[PapaG]

What is with the 270 die? .040 under the bullet diameter. I don't understand the reasoning here.