.308 velocity numbers for 16" barrel?
- Thread starter hifi
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Edumacated guesstimate: A loss of some 50 ft/sec per inch, starting at around 2,800 or so in a 22" barrel, give or take a dollar-three-eighty-a-pound.
IOW, I'm figuring around 2,500 ft/sec. Maybeso 2,400.
Art
IOW, I'm figuring around 2,500 ft/sec. Maybeso 2,400.
Art
Gordon
Member
I THINK I know; I have a couple 16" .308 and with 150-155 grain Ball they produce 2450-2550fps (Aussie-lowest, German-highest). Out of my 22" M14 those figures are 250 fps higher which equals about 40fps per inch. That is confirmed by my 600 Rem 20" which produces 2650fps with the same ball. 
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Sulaco, generally, GI stuff isn't as hot as commercial or handloads.
Think of how many decades the '06 was loaded to 2,700 ft/sec. As near as I can tell, neither Bambi nor people could notice the difference between 2,700 and 3,000.
, Art
Think of how many decades the '06 was loaded to 2,700 ft/sec. As near as I can tell, neither Bambi nor people could notice the difference between 2,700 and 3,000.
, Art
why guess when its been done!
Re-posted here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137854
Posted here:http://http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000956
(from latest SGN, platform was a FAL 16.25" bbl)
By projectile weight:
Hornady TAP 110gr 2894fps
Santa barbara surplus 146gr 2611
Horn. Spire point 150gr 2635
Black Hills Boattail 150gr 2643
Horn. TAP 155gr 2567
Rem. Nosler Ballistic tip 165gr 2573
Sellier&Bellot Match 168gr 2419
Black Hills Match 175gr 2378
I know bullet manufacturers design bullets to perform well over a range of velocities, so perhaps this question is moot (or already covered) but:
will the on-site recommended 155gr TAP ammo still have its excellent terminal performance at ~2567fps?
(as opposed to the 2849fps shown for the super gelatin pics seen here:http://http://www.tacticalforums.co...matebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000433#000014)
Now, what i can't get is some photographic evidence of terminal effect at that velocity. I hear, and can imagine its pretty good. But i don't have any evidence to back that up.
But 147gr @~2600 fps still is substantially more potent than 123gr @ 2350fps.
C-
Re-posted here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137854
Posted here:http://http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000956
(from latest SGN, platform was a FAL 16.25" bbl)
By projectile weight:
Hornady TAP 110gr 2894fps
Santa barbara surplus 146gr 2611
Horn. Spire point 150gr 2635
Black Hills Boattail 150gr 2643
Horn. TAP 155gr 2567
Rem. Nosler Ballistic tip 165gr 2573
Sellier&Bellot Match 168gr 2419
Black Hills Match 175gr 2378
I know bullet manufacturers design bullets to perform well over a range of velocities, so perhaps this question is moot (or already covered) but:
will the on-site recommended 155gr TAP ammo still have its excellent terminal performance at ~2567fps?
(as opposed to the 2849fps shown for the super gelatin pics seen here:http://http://www.tacticalforums.co...matebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000433#000014)
Now, what i can't get is some photographic evidence of terminal effect at that velocity. I hear, and can imagine its pretty good. But i don't have any evidence to back that up.
But 147gr @~2600 fps still is substantially more potent than 123gr @ 2350fps.
C-
Last edited:
Sulaco
Member
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Actually Art, a few hundred feet per second can very easily mean the difference in a bullet expanding or not. Hornady's new SST bullet design uses a reverse taper jacket design that helps expansion. But, some bullets just won't open up at all (Winchester FailSafe bullets come to mind) unless the velocities are way up there. It makes more of a difference than you think.
With Portuges surplus (FNM) I get right at 2,750fps from my 22" Rem700, and right around 2,500fps from the 16" CETME. Yeah, I know the barrel looks like 18" with the Century muzzle brake, but I believe there's around 16" of rifling in front of the bullet.
Nightcrawler
Member
I've decided on 18" or so for carbinizing my FAL. You still get better velocity and thus longer range, but the rifle is still handier than a full 21" FAL or 22" M14.
But, an 18" .308 will still be 38-40" long, depending on model. That's about the same length as a 20.5" barreled M16. So if you think a full length M16 is horridly unweildy, and 18" .308 isn't going to be your bag either.
But, a 16" .308 will still be 36-38", depending on make. (Usually on the lower end only if it has a naked barrel). Handier, but do you think 39" is terribly more unweidly than 37"? I thought about it, myself, and decided that it's not.
Now, a full length rifle is a pain in the butt when you're trying to search a vehicle, but most of us probably won't be doing that.
At any rate, DPMS does make an 18" barreled version of the rifle you're talking about. Probably a better choice for long-ranged shooting, the type that would lend itself to using a bull barreled target rifle.
But, an 18" .308 will still be 38-40" long, depending on model. That's about the same length as a 20.5" barreled M16. So if you think a full length M16 is horridly unweildy, and 18" .308 isn't going to be your bag either.
But, a 16" .308 will still be 36-38", depending on make. (Usually on the lower end only if it has a naked barrel). Handier, but do you think 39" is terribly more unweidly than 37"? I thought about it, myself, and decided that it's not.
Now, a full length rifle is a pain in the butt when you're trying to search a vehicle, but most of us probably won't be doing that.
At any rate, DPMS does make an 18" barreled version of the rifle you're talking about. Probably a better choice for long-ranged shooting, the type that would lend itself to using a bull barreled target rifle.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Sulaco, I'm not intending any smartmouth, but I've been handloading for the '06 and looking at the effects of the bullets since 1950. I've "autopsied" deer I've shot at ranges varying from 30 yards to 450 yards. A few years back, in the TFL hunt forum, we had a good discussion of expansion of various hunting bullets. Even got some Tech Talk from Sierra in the thread.
Art
The 155 TAP is the 155 gr AMAX target bullet. It has a thin jacket and the poly tip so it opens real easily, it's probably the best bet for a short barreled defence gun. Don't worry, it's almost too destructive on deer at much lower velocities. Below 19 inches that .308 barrel starts being a real loud flamethrower though, keep it as long as you can. You might read up on Jeff Coopers Scout Rifle concept. http://pw2.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutrifle.html He wanted to build a VERY short and light .308 rifle but he kept the barrel at 19".
bogie
Member
Why?
Only reason I can think of to bobbit a .308 to minimal length would be to shoot fast-twist subsonics with very heavy bullets. Otherwise, why not just shoot a cartridge which will more efficiently utilize the barrel length - such as the 7.62x39?
Only reason I can think of to bobbit a .308 to minimal length would be to shoot fast-twist subsonics with very heavy bullets. Otherwise, why not just shoot a cartridge which will more efficiently utilize the barrel length - such as the 7.62x39?
odysseus
Member
This thread reminds me of others on other boards regarding the M1A Scout model versus the M1A SOCOM.
Most people come out of it with the feeling there is not as much difference given relative twist ratios, however saying that most opt for the 18" since carrying the extra 2" doesn't seem to mean too much overall. Also most factory loads still burn out behind the round more on the 16", giving a larger flash and bang...
Most people come out of it with the feeling there is not as much difference given relative twist ratios, however saying that most opt for the 18" since carrying the extra 2" doesn't seem to mean too much overall. Also most factory loads still burn out behind the round more on the 16", giving a larger flash and bang...
Father Knows Best
Member
FWIW, I have a short barrel FAL (DSA SA58 Para Congo with a 16.25" barrel and flash hider).
I bought it used, and was initially a little concerned about the 16" barrel being too short. I've since changed my mind. It's a little on the loud side, but not intolerable, and the flash hider almost completely kills any muzzle flash (it's minimal enough that I don't even notice it from behind the gun, which is all I really care about). With the folding stock, it makes a very compact package. An additional two inches of barrel length may not mean much in terms of the handiness of a conventionally stocked rifle, but it would be very noticeable on a folder.
My Para Congo also really likes the TAP 110 grain ammo. I'm still using the factory iron sights (can't afford the ACOG, yet), and the trigger is a little rough, but I can consistently get 2" 100 yard groups off the bench with the TAP 110, so long as I take my time and do my part. With TAP 168 grain the groups open up to 2.5-3.5", and with Portuguese surplus ball I'm getting more like 3-4". I haven't tried the 155 grain TAP.
I haven't run any of it through a chrony. I bought a used chrony recently, but I haven't had time to set it up and try it out.
I bought it used, and was initially a little concerned about the 16" barrel being too short. I've since changed my mind. It's a little on the loud side, but not intolerable, and the flash hider almost completely kills any muzzle flash (it's minimal enough that I don't even notice it from behind the gun, which is all I really care about). With the folding stock, it makes a very compact package. An additional two inches of barrel length may not mean much in terms of the handiness of a conventionally stocked rifle, but it would be very noticeable on a folder.
My Para Congo also really likes the TAP 110 grain ammo. I'm still using the factory iron sights (can't afford the ACOG, yet), and the trigger is a little rough, but I can consistently get 2" 100 yard groups off the bench with the TAP 110, so long as I take my time and do my part. With TAP 168 grain the groups open up to 2.5-3.5", and with Portuguese surplus ball I'm getting more like 3-4". I haven't tried the 155 grain TAP.
I haven't run any of it through a chrony. I bought a used chrony recently, but I haven't had time to set it up and try it out.
Chuck R.
Member
Guys,
I’m with Nightcrawler on this.
I cannot see or feel a huge difference in weight, handiness due to an extra 2” of barrel. I originally ordered my DSA SA58 with a 19” barrel with the intent of cutting it down 1” to add a real FS after the ban expired. After shooting the rifle for a while I decided I liked the 19” length, so I had the fake FS sweated off and a real FS screwed on.
My 19” barreled FAL with the short Belgian FS is exactly 1” longer than my 18.5” barreled Benelli M1S90 tactical.
So if an 18.5” barreled shotgun with an OAL of 39.75” is wieldy, how unwieldy can a FAL with an OAL of 40.75 be? An 18” barreled FAL would be the exact same length.
With my reloads I get 2720 with 150 grain bullets out of my 19” barrel. I also get 2680 with Port surplus.
Chuck
I’m with Nightcrawler on this.
I cannot see or feel a huge difference in weight, handiness due to an extra 2” of barrel. I originally ordered my DSA SA58 with a 19” barrel with the intent of cutting it down 1” to add a real FS after the ban expired. After shooting the rifle for a while I decided I liked the 19” length, so I had the fake FS sweated off and a real FS screwed on.
My 19” barreled FAL with the short Belgian FS is exactly 1” longer than my 18.5” barreled Benelli M1S90 tactical.
So if an 18.5” barreled shotgun with an OAL of 39.75” is wieldy, how unwieldy can a FAL with an OAL of 40.75 be? An 18” barreled FAL would be the exact same length.
With my reloads I get 2720 with 150 grain bullets out of my 19” barrel. I also get 2680 with Port surplus.
Chuck
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