35 whelen or 30-06

[Arkansas deer hunter]

while on my quest looking for a 30-06 I found out about a caliber called the 35whelen.while reading up on the whelen I saw a load from hornady that hurls the 200 gr projectile @ 2910 fps.Thats impressive!Now the only thing is the only left-handed rifle is the cva apex.my question is for ALL north american game which one would you choose?The 30-06 or its cousin the whelen?And how is the accuracy and durability on the apex centerfire?Thanks.

 

[dirtyjim]

Can't help you on the cva apex but i have 5 30-06's and one 35 whelen.
My whelen is first choice on hunting & range trips, my -06's are way down on my list.

 

[Skyshot]

The whelen gets overlooked alot and it will pound anything on earth. BTW the 06 is still a fine round.

 

[jmr40]

I went through a 35 Whelen and 338-06 phase, before slowly realizing the 30-06 outperforms either. I don't know where you found a 35 Whelen load with 200 gr bullet at a claimed" 2900 fps, but I doubt it is actully happening and being safe. The best loads I could find were around 2750 fps, I can shoot the same weight in a 30-06 at 2700 fps. While you get .05" larger bullet diameter the 30-06 has much better sectional density and will easily give much more penetration with heavy 200+ gr bullets.

The 30-06 is much more versatile in that it will also shoot lighter bullets at much flatter trajectory for other purposes. Remember a 200 gr bullet is a lightweight in 35 caliber. The Whelen is best used with 250-275 gr bullets. With those, you MIGHT start to see some slight gains over a 30-06.

But these guys don't think so. The Alaska game and fish dept. tested various chamberings to determine which would be best for large bear defense. Their conclusion: A 375 mag was the #1 choice. But a 30-06 when loaded with 200-220 gr bullets out performed all other chamberings tested including 35 Whelen, 338-06, 45-70, and 444. A 300 mag loaded with the same bullets matched to 30-06, but did not beat it. The extra velocity adds extra effective range, not extra close range performance.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

A link to the Alaska study and tests.

I went to Hornady's website and they do list a "Superformance" load at that speed. I've never actually chronographed this 35 Whelen load, but I have chronographed 165 and 150 gr 308 superformance loads and 165 gr 30-06 superformance loads. They were 130-150 fps slower than advertised. My 30-06 handloads are faster than I got with Superformance ammo and their 308 ammo only beats my handloads by around 50 fps. 2910 fps -150fps=2760. Right where my loading manuals say the best loads should be.

 

[One_Jackal]

Another thing about the 30/06 is you don't have to be a reloader to have the load you want. There is a wide variety of factory loads to deal with almost any situation. For hunting the 30/06 is the most versatile caliber.

 

[Agent1209]

I have a TC pro hunter with a 35 Whelen barrel. I love it. It hammers deer. I also am from Arkansas and where I hunt my max shot is maybe 200 yards. It will do that all day long. I shot the Hornady this year ( with good results) but am going to relOad some Speer 180 hot cores to about 2900 FPS. And yes the 35 Whelen is the most efficient cartridge factory produced and there are now more factory options than four years ago. I highly recommend it.

 

[benzy2]

jmr40,

I take different results from that article than you do. The .30-06 placed 11th ballistically. It's only real niche was with inexperienced or recoil sensitive shooters. The article also stated that the 45-70 had a lot of potential but poor bullet selection at the time (only easily available factory loads were tested). Add 30 years of bullet design as well as the ability to use handloads and options that originally looked poor may come alive. I haven't followed .45-70 bullet design but if a decent expanding banded bullet has come along in the heavier weights I'm sure it would have made a much better impression. I also don't understand why bullet expansion makes as much difference as it does. Their testing didn't test overall expanded bullet diameter but rather expansion percentage compared to original diameter.

It also shows that the 35 whelen wasn't tested.

Hard to put a ton of weight in that study with today's ammo and with the ability to reload to your own desires. It's still relevant but it ranked the .300 win mag as far bellow the .30-06, mostly because the bullet of the day didn't open up. They also didn't test similar weights (relative to chambering) with similar designed bullets, in fact they claim they didn't do so in the opening remarks.

 

[splithoof]

All that ballistics talk is well and good, but when was the last time Walmart stocked .35 Whelen ammunition? If you need to find ammo lost/misplaced on a hunting trip the '06 will be much easier to find.

 

[Agent1209]

An article in March/April 2005 Rifleshooter Magazine entitled Cartridge Efficiency, written by George W. Calef, proposes - "Forget about the highest power and velocity : which rounds produce the most with the powder they burn?"

I think Calef's article is somewhat flawed with errors of fact, some questions about logic, and and some ommisions (like straight walled cases like the 444 Marlin and the 45- 70 and other worthy efficient wildcats). However, his basic conclusions about 35s are no suprise to knowledgable 35 calibre fans. They confirm my own reflections on relative cartridge efficiency. Calef presents his findings;

"I put my money on the 7mm-08, the .284 Winchester, or the .308 Win., with the thought in the back of my mind that, just possibly, the wonderful little .250 Savage would beat them all. Boy was I astonished when the numbers started rolling in - suprised on several counts in fact - and I suspect you will be too.

To keep you from holding your breath any longer, the winner is the .35 Whelen. This venerable cartridge (a long time wildcat designed way back in 1930 in honor of Col. Townsend Whelen and finally legitimized in 1995 [note - error of fact - should read 1988] by Remington) delivers more kinetic energy and a higher L [Wooter's lethality index] factor per grain of powder burned than any other cartridge.

In Ackley's improved version it is even better, becoming the only cartridge on the list capable of generating more than 50 ft-lbs of energy and a L factor exceeding 5.00 at 200 yards for each grain of powder loaded.

What's more as a group, the .35s are all highly efficient, beating virtually every cartridge of smaller caliber. Even the obscure .358 Norma Magnum is the most efficient of the belted-magnum cartridges [note - by the author's own data the 350 Remington Magnum bests the 358 Norma]. This wonderful efficiency of the .35 calibers is especially remarkable when one considers that most all of these rounds are verging on obsolescence today. Take a look at the list of .35-caliber cartridges; do you or any of your friends shoot one? Luckily they are not entirely gone. In fact Remington reintroduced the splendid .350 Remington Magnum a couple of years ago in the model 600 carbine series."

 

[Skyshot]

Well back before a lot of you guys can remember when they didn't have caliber restrictions in Africa. I remember a friend of my dad's that was a tobacco grower in Rhodesia and he used to come to Tennessee and sell his crop. He told us that he had taken elephants and cape buffalo with his 35 whelen and that it was his go to gun while out in the bush and that he liked it because it didn't smash his shoulder like the .460 he had did. And if I remember correctly he used a 310 gr solid in the whelen and he said it drop anything.

 

[j1]

The 30 06 for all around use but the Whelan for bigger creatures. Both will kill deer stone dead. Just put the hole in the correct spot.

 

[blackhawk44]

Ark, if you handload its .35 Whelen. If you use storebought ammo only, its .30-06. Easy.

 

[Kachok]

30-06 is a fantastic genral purpose hunting cartrage, one of the best no doubt, the 35 Whelen is not as versitle as the 06 but does a better job at throwing really heavy lead at large animals.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Bigfoot Wallace, my custom '03 Springfield, is a .35 Brown-Whelen. That's the most radical form of the Whelen, with almost all the taper taken out of the case, and shoulder moved well forward and sharpened. MY favorite load for this rifle is a 225 grain Nosler Partition Jacket at 2,800 fps. That just about duplicates the .338 Win Mag, and it kills elk like lightening.

 

[Mosbyranger]

I do not know much about African hunting or the 35 Whelen, but I do know that my 30-06 takes down Elk in a hurry. I do know that 30-06 ammo is widely available. I do know that 30-06 ammo can be handcrafted and tailored to any hunting situation on the North American continent. It would be my choice in North America
MR

 

[readyeddy]

I need educating. How does a 35 Whelan using a 225 grain bullet fly at 2,800 fps when a standard .30-06 180 grain bullet goes around 2,700 fps when both use the same case?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I need educating. How does a 35 Whelan using a 225 grain bullet fly at 2,800 fps when a standard .30-06 180 grain bullet goes around 2,700 fps when both use the same case?

It's quite simple. First of all the .35 Whelen works on expansion ratios. When you fire a cartridge, the powder burns (very rapidly) and produces high-pressure gas. This gas expands, pushing the bullet down the bore.

Now, imagine two identical rifles, but one has a .35 caliber bore, and the other has a .30 caliber bore. The gas expands faster in the .35 caliber barrel because there is more volume for it to expand into. And when a gas expands, the pressure drops. But we want to keep the pressure as high as we can (within safety limits.) so we add more powder -- and that means we add more energy.

So a .35 Whelen can drive a heavy .35 caliber bullet about as fast as a .30-06 can drive a lighter .30 caliber bullet.

In the .35 Brown-Whelen, with its blown-out case and shoulder pushed well forward, we have more capacity than the original .30-06, and can drive that .35 caliber bullet even faster.

 

[Slamfire]

But these guys don't think so. The Alaska game and fish dept. tested various chamberings to determine which would be best for large bear defense. Their conclusion: A 375 mag was the #1 choice. But a 30-06 when loaded with 200-220 gr bullets out performed all other chamberings tested including 35 Whelen, 338-06, 45-70, and 444. A 300 mag loaded with the same bullets matched to 30-06, but did not beat it. The extra velocity adds extra effective range, not extra close range performance.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

A link to the Alaska study and tests.

Very interesting read but I dispute the accuracy of the testing media and thus the conclusions drawn.

The basic sort of issue is whether the “bear” or "tissue stimulant" is realistic. This report has a reference to a book by Hagel, and Hagel claims that a box of alternating wood panels and wood silt reacts similarly to bear tissue. Why should I believe Hagel?

From what I have read about human tissue stimulants, finding and agreeing on tissue stimulants is not an easy process. For decades gunwriters shot wet phone books, steel targets, bricks, duc seal, dirt, saw dust, car engines, and all of them claimed some correlation between performance in these media and real life. But they never proved it. They never proved anything. Dr Fackler, a Government Lethality expert, he had the time and money to test bullet performance and find an accepted human tissue stimulant, and Dr Fackler is totally scathing about the conclusions drawn by Gunwriter “experts”. I don’t see anything to believe that Mr Hagel is not just another guy who found an easy to make test media that has no relationship to reality.

As for the 35 Whelen, it is an excellent cartridge though I think the versions with the sharper shoulder are better. In my experience the shallow shoulder of the standard 35 Whelen cushions the firing pin blow.

A 35 Whelen starts off with a larger hole than a 30-06 and within the shooting ability of 99% of the shooters out there, gives adequate range.

[SIZE="3"]M1903 1:10 twist  24" Douglas barrel 	
							
225 Sierra SPBT  52.5 grs  IMR 4064 wtd Lot 2449 CCI 200 OAL 3.30 	
	 necked up R-P 30-06 				
							
16 Oct 2009  T =  65 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2260				 		
Std Dev =	34						
ES =	113						
High =	2331						
Low =	2218						 
N =	10					 	
							
nice rounded primers, smoked case necks, most accurate load		
no hangfires! 						
							
							
225 Sierra SPBT  53.0 grs IMR 4064 wtd Lot 2449 CCI 200 OAL 3.30 	
	 necked up R-P 30-06 				
							
16 Oct 2009  T =  65 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2270				 		
Std Dev =	24						
ES =	56						
High =	2290						
Low =	2234						
N =	6					 	
							
nice rounded primers, smoked case necks, no hangfires		
							
							
180 Sierra SPBT  58.0 grs IMR 4064 wtd Lot 2449 CCI 200 OAL to cannulure 
	 necked up R-P 30-06 				
							
16 Oct 2009  T =  65 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2506				 		
Std Dev =	19						
ES =	56						
High =	2529						
Low =	2473						
N =	10[/SIZE]

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As for the 35 Whelen, it is an excellent cartridge though I think the versions with the sharper shoulder are better.

An even more serious problem with the .40 Whelen, which has almost no shoulder.

The .35 Brown-Whelen, with its greater capacity and sharp shoulder is close to ideal, and about all you can expect out of the basic .30-06 case.

 

[bpl]

If you don't already have a 30-06, you should get the 30-06 because everyone should have at least one. If you already have a 30-06, then maybe you should consider getting the 35 Whelen. JMHO!

 

[303tom]

They have stuck just about every thing you can think of the 06 just to realize that the old .30-06 is just about as good as you can get...................