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350 Legend

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Mr_Flintstone, Apr 13, 2019.

  1. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    Anybody shot one of these yet? Is it everything it’s claimed to be? It’s advertised to launch a 150 gr .357 bullet at over 2300 FPS from a bolt gun, and around 2000-2300 FPS from an AR 15 platform.
     
  2. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    from what i seen it does not, winchester was pretty misslening on the 350L, i was liking it, until the facts came out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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  3. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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  4. horsemen61

    horsemen61 Member

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    No clue haven’t seen anything for it yet round here!
     
  5. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    Just read the Chuck Hawks article. Now, I am aware that Hawks can have some odd opinions on things but he sure did a good job of thrashing the .350 Legend. Probably unfairly so. The little quips in there about it only being for the straight wall states got me laughing though because of how he articulates bureaucracy and politics with dopey hunting laws and how any rifle, even a small straight walled case one, is better than a shotgun slug.

    I find shotgun slugs to be highly effective at dropping whatever I shoot with it. Of course, there’s recoil...

    A fellow I know just got a .350 Legend barrel for his Encore and I am going to bug him to take it shooting so I can give it a fair try. I really don’t expect it to have much on the .450 Bushmaster though.
     
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  6. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    I can think of one thing that’s not your average run of the mill application... a magazine of 30 .357 Maximum level buckshot loads from an AR. You could pepper the entire countryside with that.
     
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  7. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    Im still not 100% sure where I stand on it. I was all dead set to build a 357MaxAR when this was announced.

    I'll probably buy a factory 350 Legend and rebarrel if the cartridge ever goes the way of the Do-Do bird.

    Even though it might not be all Winchester claims it'll still be a good <250yard deer/hog gun. Which is about 150 yards longer than 90% of my available shots.
     
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  8. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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  9. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    I'm not a proponent or detractor of this cartridge but I just read the Chuck Hawks article and found it to be moronic. Why on earth would you compare this to a 243 or any other bottleneck rifle cartridge? That's like saying why buy an F150 when a D9 catapillar has a much larger towing capacity? The only fair comparison is to compare it with other cartridges that are actually legal in straightwall cartridge states, meeting both the caliber and length requirements. In that context it falls solidly in the middle of the field for power, and will be one of the better ones out to 200 yards. I have a 357 maximum and it is a legit 200 yard deer cartridge when properly loaded.

    If you weed it out further to just cartridges that fit in an AR15 the field is considerably narrower still. The only cartridges I am aware of that fit this bill are 450 bushmaster, 400AR, 357 AR max, and 350 legend. The two in the middle are wildcats, which leaves the 350 legend and 450 bushmaster as the only commercially available AR options, and many people will find the recoil of a 450 bushmaster to be too much.
     
  10. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    It's impossible to argue that's even vaguely well thought out.

    The .350 Legend is a solution to a very specific problem: hunting in straight wall states with an AR 15 platform. You can debate whether the hunting regs should work that way, but if you want to hunt you have to follow them. Within the context of the problem it's intended for, it is an excellent solution. In order to achieve that, it sacrifices general utility. Everyone with a brain understands that. Comparing .350 Legend to .30-30 or .350 Remington is stupid, because if you could shoot one of those you wouldn't need a .350 Legend. But last I checked the .350 Remington doesn't fit in a AR 15 and isn't a straight wall. So good bad or indifferent you can't use it, and it wouldn't fit in the gun if you could.
     
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  11. Bartojc

    Bartojc Member

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    Comparing the 350 Legend to any bottleneck cartridge is not a legitimate comparison. As already stated the intent of the cartridge is areas with straight walled cartridge hunting regulations. I think is will grow legs as an alternative to the 450 Bushmaster. I would truly like to shoot both, but if the 450 recoil is manageable I have no idea why you would get a 350.

    -Jeff
     
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  12. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    Methinks you didn't read very carefully: Winchester chose to compare to the .243 and .30-30. Chuck spent several paragraphs of the article pointing out how that comparison is poorly chosen, and that Winchester was deceptively selective about the comparative data.

    A more honest comparison would be vs .357 Magnum, plus available in the AR action. That line of reasoning is pretty solid, but that's not what Winchester chose to do.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  13. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    It is great at what you said. Winchester should have marketed it as a great cartridge for straight wall only or AR platform 35.
    If you reread the article, he was saying the comparison was being done wrong by Winchester.
    He compared it against mid-range 35s because Winchester is touting it as a mid-range cartridge.
     
  14. cougar1717

    cougar1717 Member

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    Just read Chuck Hawks article and it wasn't that controversial. There really wasn't much to disagree with at all.

    Quite simply:
    Winchester's target market are hunters in "straight wall" states
    It's designed to be used in MSR's but isn't 223 compatible in terms of mags or case forming. So brass will be relatively expensive. A person can't even use an unformed "223 Basic" brass from Starline to form 350 Legend.
    It's 55,000 psi, headspaces on the case mouth, and has a rebated rim.
    At the end of the article, Chuck mentions that there are other similarly designed (older) cartridges but at a much lower psi due to case stretching and that a belt was used for headspace on the "old reliables".
    It isn't the "World's Fastest Straight Wall Hunting Cartridge."
    Chuck compares it to rifle cartridges because Winchester advertised as a rifle cartridge. He then decimates every piece of recoil, energy ft lbs, and gel test propaganda. His point is that Winchester's advertised data is cherry picked propaganda. (Which everyone kind of knew when it debuted.)

    If you live in a straight wall state, what are your choices for rifle hunting? A 357mag or 44mag in a Ruger 77? A single shot like a Contender, Encore, or Handi-rifle in a straight wall caliber with max OAL restrictions? 450 Bushmaster AR? At least 350 Legend gets you further reach in places that have the restrictions with a semi-auto action and a detachable mag, It isn't going to take over hunting markets in unrestricted areas. We all know it's a super niche product. Even the 357MAX guys got excited before they realized the 350 Legend's case dimensions put it in proprietary status. Chuck's just saying that it isn't the greatest ever like Winchester's advertising makes it out to be.
     
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  15. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    you can not use the 223 basic case the 350L is it's own case, big fail for winchester.
     
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  16. HB

    HB Member

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    https://www.chuckhawks.com/win_350_legend.html

    This article is laughable. Maybe if Chuck Hawks had a marketing department he’d be more popular???

    I wish they would have used 223 brass in some regard but it is what it is. A .357 max that can be shot from ARs. Should be pretty popular however. If the brass could be made from range pick up 223 I would buy one to share bullets with my 357s.
     
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  17. mcb

    mcb Member

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    I always take advertising hype with a huge grain of salt. I really don't pay much attention to the hype and simply look at the real world numbers and put that against my application.

    I still think it sits in a unique (all-be-in very niche) position between 450 Bushmaster and 300 BO sub-sonic. If you have a .357"/9mm suppressor then the 350 Legend can server both a mini-thumper and a hard hitting silenced rifle role even in a state that requires straight wall cases. If I did not already own a 450 Bushmaster and two 300 BO guns I would be taking a serious look at 350 Legend.

    And as disappointing as is that 350 Legend cannot be formed from 223/556 I realize that I now have over 1000 pieces of 300 BO and very little of it has a 223/556 head stamp.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  18. Ironhand54

    Ironhand54 Member

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    Looks like Winchester tried to tweak the numbers in favor of the 350 so Chuck decided to tweak them against it.

    At the start of the article Chuck admits he's not a easterner. In the article one gets the feeling he can't sympathize with close quarters hunters. As a result his analysis seems formed by analysis and not experience. The 350 is the latest in a long line of midrange, mid power "brush" rounds chambered in light, handy carbines. It's not ment for long range.

    As a Michigan hunter I can see where the 350 would be useful, even north of the "shotgun line " . Not everyone has wide open spaces to hunt in.

    Did Winchester fluff the numbers? Of course they did. It's called advertising, and Chuck knows it. I'm more disappointed to see him using the same apples to oranges comparisons.

    Ironhand
     
  19. sevt_chevelle

    sevt_chevelle Member

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    Was kinda interested, but uses one off brass and one off AR mags...Big FAIL. I'll just keep my 450 Bushmaster
     
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  20. Pat Riot

    Pat Riot Member

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    I am not giving up on the idea of this round. I was excited when I heard you could load the ammo with unformed.223 brass but it seems that would be a problem.
    Apparently there would be a problem at the case head according to this article.
    https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019/01/31/350-legend-specifications/

    As a hunting round and the brass issue aside it still interests me.

    https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/the-winchester-350-legend-cartridge/359189


    Here is some information from Winchester that answers the question on the brass.
    https://winchester.com/350-legend/faq

    I think it’s an interesting concept and I may build an upper for it but the one thing I have found is that it appears you can’t use standard AR-15 magazines. I didn’t know that until I started writing this post.
    The one thing I tried to do is find info that wasn’t written at the time of the SHOT show or right after it. The Hype-Meisters really tick me off when it comes to offerings at the SHOT show.

    Well, I started this post with a positive attitude towards the .350 Legend. I think I will just take a back seat and see how things play out on this round.
     
  21. Goosey

    Goosey Member

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    Example of said tweaking:

    "Winchester must have used the least powerful .30-30 load they could find, as 781 ft. lbs. is 200-300 ft. lbs. below typical .30-30 factory load ballistics, which are usually taken in 24 inch test barrels. (For good reason, as 24 inches was the "standard" barrel length for classic Winchester .30-30 rifles, although they could be ordered with practically any length barrel) and is again today in the premium Marlin XLR and new Winchester Model 94 rifles."

    But of course most everyone knows a .30-30 barrel on your average '94 or 336 comes in at 20", it's not the year 1900 with folks toting 26" sporting rifles. And when I punch in the numbers myself for typical .30-30 loads (150/2300, 170/2100) the 200-yard figures come in at 800 ft lbs give or take, against Winchester's claimed 781. A lot closer than Chuck's 1305 ft lbs.
     
  22. Ohen Cepel

    Ohen Cepel Member

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    Over-hyped and under-supported is what I see do far. I won't argue any numbers, bigger issue I see is that I can't buy ammo or a rifle to shoot if I wanted to do so. If they don't get moving FAST this will die quickly, and only be a legend...............
     
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  23. Macchina

    Macchina Member

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    I was all over this round as an AR pistol round for Midwest hunting... Till I found out about proprietary brass and mags. Both were so easy to avoid even if you lost 50-100 FPS but they killed it for me with the brass and mags.

    The appeal to me of 300 BO is that it's so compatible with my 5.56 ARs. If only my state allowed 30 caliber pistols to be used for deer I would have jumped in the 300 BO wagon long ago.
     
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  24. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    Get yourself a 357 AR max then. Custom order page below. You still need to file the rib out of the mag, and converting used 223 brass is not as simple as it sounds, but you can certainly do it.

    https://www.maddogweapons.com/store...Savage,_or_Remington_Remage_Bolt_Action).html
     
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  25. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    I don't find anything written by Chuck Hawks very educational. He doesn't come across as particularly knowledgeable about firearms in general. There is no way I'd consider one unless I lived in a state where cartridge choices were limited. Even then I think there are better options.
     
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