357 Magnum and recoil

[kestak]

Greetings,

I have been experimenting with H110, Blue Dot and Unique on a 6 1/2" Taurus 357 Magnum and 158gr JSP (Jacketed soft point) bullets.

My wife likes shooting the 357 magnum with big recoil. My goal is not to have the smallest recoil, but the biggest one. (Her next gun will be a 44 Magnum which is the highest caliber we can shoot at the interior range). And then she has an eye on the .454 Casull for the outside range we go once a month.

Here are the end range loads I tested (I incremented for each one):
H110 16.4gr
Blue Dot 10 gr
Unique 7.4 gr

I am using only magnum primers.

The biggest recoil is H110 16.4 gr. I do not dare to go up to the upper limit that is 16.7 gr because as of now, with my electronic scale and my Dillon 550B powder measure, it shows a load ranging (averaging) from 16.3 gr to 16.5 gr.

So my questions are:

1 - Can I get a bigger recoil with those powders or #2 (I have those in stock right now). If not, what other powder and load will give me a bigger recoil?

2 - I did not see any sign of over pressure. Can I "dare" to set up the 550b powder measure to 16.7 gr for the H110 and "survive" a range from 16.6 gr to 16.8 gr or even 16.9 gr?

About question #2, I am an engineer (in computers) and I have all the science classes an engineer needs to take. So, when I measure the powder, I proceeded like this:

Take 4 loads and divide the total by 4. The average "should" compensate for the scale imprecision (The scale has only one digit after the dot for the grains). Do that 5 times. Then each 20 rounds I assemble, I take four loads measurement and if the total divided by 4 is +- .1 grain, it is acceptable.

3 - Will using non magnum primers with Blue Dot or Unique will change the recoil and makes it harder?

Thank you

 

[SASS#23149]

If you want/need more recoil get some 180 grain 'silhouette' bullets.The moe bullet weight,the higher the felt recoil.That has been my experience at least.
I just shot some 180 grain lead bullets that were not 'top end' loads,but they sure rocked the 6 1/2" ruger blackhawk.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO, H110/W296 will give you the heaviest felt recoil. I load 15.7 gr H110 for my 4" S&W M686. I did load 16.7 in 20 rounds and shot them but some of the powder didn't burn and the recoil was VERY heavy. I didn't want to damage my revolver but the heavy loads are very accurate in my Marlin Carbine.

I settled on 15.7 gr because that load feels as heavy as factory loads from Remington, Winchester and Independence but are still very accurate.

H110 and W296 require the use of a Magnum Primer. I suggest you use a Magnum Primer to reliable ignite those 2 powders because they are harder to ignite that most others. You will probably feel a bit more kick with the Magnum primer too so don't add any more powder that you are already using until you see the results. You will also get higher initial pressures with a Magnum primer.

 

[dakotasin]

to bring out the most in the 357, i have found hard cast bullets and a heavy dose of 2400 will produce more felt recoil than my 480 ruger (i have found that i can run a lot heavier loads w/ cast bullets than i can w/ jacketed).

 

[joneb]

AA#9 with a 180gr XTP can produce higher velocities than any of the before mentioned powders, but I load for accuracy not recoil so your motives do not seem logical to me. I have found that Taurus revolvers will become loose and out of time before a better/heavier made revolver will.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm not sure AA #9 will give you a heavier recoil than H110.

From the AA Site:
No. 9, 180 gr HDY XTP, Max load 13 gr, Velocity 1,293 fps, 43,000 PSI
From the Hodgdon Site:
H110, 180 gr NOS PART, Max load 13.5 gr, Velocity 1,396, 39,100 CUP

I don't know the conversion for PSI and CUP but H110 give you a higher velocity and that usually translated into a bigger kick.

 

[pinkymingeo]

Accurate Arms table velocities are close to real world. Hodgdon's numbers tend to be nonsense. .357 has one of the sharpest recoil impulses available. If you want something unpleasant to shoot, stick with the magnum and get a lighter gun. Try those loads you're using in a 340/360PD and tell us how much fun it is.

 

[Steve C]

After you get that Taurus flame cut and shaken apart using those max loads and slow powder get yourself a .357 mag 2" barreled lightweight pistol, one of the titanium or scandium ones that weigh about as much as a sheet of paper. Then you'll find out what maximum recoil is like.

 

[birddog]

I'm not going to get into the technical details, but a 158gr JSP pushed by 7.4 grains of Unique is my favorite .357 round. It's snappy, but not punishing even in my snubby. And not only is it a good range load, but it's also proven itself on a rabid racoon......

Love that Unique. I use it for .44mag hunting and plinking loads, .45acp loads, and .357.

 

[Big Boomer]

recoil

with that manufacturer and given the barrel length I would use either 158 gr or 180 gr and a slow burning powder. If you go for the lighter bullets like the 110's and the 125's and shooting extremely hot loads in anything but a Ruger or similar built revolver you are going to possibly:

1. crack the forcing cone from the light bullets slamming at high speed (and a lot of pressure) into it

2. get very bad flame cutting that can mess up your forcing cone as well as degrade the top strap (I am speaking from experience)

use heavier bullets, slower powder (max loads are fine) but you have to remember that typically Taurus has a greater cylinder gap that others on the market, Ruger, S&W, etc. This causes more fire to come out of the gap and at higher pressures can do damage where the other manufacturers could hold up. I am not knocking the Taurus, I am simply saying don't push the limits of what the gun was designed for.

If you want recoil, make your next gun a Ruger and load them to nuclear levels it may still damage the gun in the long run but at least it was overbuilt for it. I load my 45 colt to 44 mag pressures and it down right hurts, it's worse than any of my other big bore handguns (357, 460, 500) also get rid of those rubber grips and add some wood or metal ones that will increase the pain factor quite a bit.

The 454 is going to recoil significantly more than a 44 and as far as recoil factor goes the 454 and specifically the Alaskan is the highest recoiling handgun on the market.

The S&W Scandiums in a 44 mag or 357 top the "pain" charts though. Remember the lighter the gun, shorter the barrel, and heavier the bullet, and lotsa powder = most recoil.

Good luck from another recoil junkie

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

maybe you should get her a derringer chambered in 357 mag !!?

 

[Bula]

Load heavier bullets. Funny, I thought I wanted all my .357 mags to rattle the ground under my feet. Now I find myself going the other way. I bet she'd like a few 170 gr hardcast under a healthy dose of 2400.

 

[MrDig]

Not intending to HiJack....

So got any recipe's for 180 from a .357 Carbine?
Specifically I want a round for Deer with my Marlin 1894C .357 Carbine.
I know I want 180 bullets what powder and Primers do you guys use?

 

[kestak]

Greetings,

Just a small follow up: I got her a .44 magnum super redhawk with 300 grains PRVI rounds. I hope it will be enough for her. I'll perhaps try to reload them a little bit hotter later if it is not. I will NOT go with a higher caliber than that. I ain't rich! :banghead:

Thank you

 

[CZ57]

Well, kids, recoil is a constant of physics. Velocity X bullet weight/1000 = Power Factor. Power factor is closely related to recoil. Some fast burning powders can provide enough pressure without producing as much velocity that recoil can be similar. But, to get true rock-n-roll, you'll need velocity with a given bullet weight.

Which Taurus? If it's a Tracker or a 7 or 8-shooter, stick to current data or you'll get sticky extraction. If it's a 6-shooter like the Smith 686, 27, 28, Colt Python, Trooper series Mk III or V, King Cobra (Peacekeeper), Ruger Security Six or GP-100, you can use original .357 Magnum data.

When going to the older full throttle loads, Blue Dot will exceed all others in velocity at any given bullet weight. JibJab has it right, only AA#9 has ever exceeded what Blue Dot will do. Ramshot data is limited, but Enforcer has the same type of potential. With 296, or H110, there simply isn't enough case capacity in .357 Magnum to rival what Blue Dot and AA#9 can do. Ditto for Enforcer. Just like rifle reloading, burn rates have to be matched to case capacity and bullet weight.

Many handloaders believe they can maximize .357, .41 and .44 Magnum velocity with 296 and 110. Sorry, it just don't work that way!

The data for + 40,000 CUP loads in .357 Magnum with AA#9 is still available from Accurate, but it's in the second edition manual. Keep that in mind if you look at the latest data at their website because the older data is available if you look hard enough. With 296 and 110, you'll run out of case capacity before you get close to 40,000 CUP. Blue Dot, with the correct data will get it done easily.

The original pressure spec for the .357 Magnum is 46,000 CUP, or near 50,000 PSI by current SAAMI standards. Most commercial ammo and a good deal of current handload data is max at 35,000 PSI. Lighter weight and poorer quality foreign revolvers are the reason.

If you want maximum velocity (recoil to go with it) and you want the best accuracy available in the caliber, it's AA#9!

 

[alucard0822]

140gr XTP 19gr H110, and take the grips off

The heavier bullets reduce case capacity, and don't quite have the same muzzle blast, to me they don't feel like they kick as hard, lighter bullets have a big flash, and kick fast, but not as hard. at least IMO

 

[Big Boomer]

Ummm are you SURE about that?

Many handloaders believe they can maximize .357, .41 and .44 Magnum velocity with 296 and 110. Sorry, it just don't work that way!

The data for + 40,000 CUP loads in .357 Magnum with AA#9 is still available from Accurate, but it's in the second edition manual. Keep that in mind if you look at the latest data at their website because the older data is available if you look hard enough. With 296 and 110, you'll run out of case capacity before you get close to 40,000 CUP. Blue Dot, with the correct data will get it done easily.

From Hodgdon's site:

125 GR. HDY XTP 125 H110 .357" 1.590" 22.0 1966 41,400 CUP
125 GR. HDY XTP 125 296 .357" 1.590" 22.0 1966 41,400 CUP

158 GR. HDY XTP 158 H110 .357" 1.580" 16.7 1591 40,700 CUP
158 GR. HDY XTP 158 296 .357" 1.580" 16.7 1591 40,700 CUP

180 GR. NOS PART 180 H110 .357" 1.575" 13.5 1396 39,100 CUP
180 GR. NOS PART 180 296 .357" 1.575" 13.5 1396 39,100 CUP

and I'll even throw in a Lil Gun cuz it actually has higher velocity with lower pressures

180 GR. NOS PART 180 Lil'Gun .357" 1.575" 15.0 1422 34,500 CUP

Now for the accurate stuff, from their website: once again only max charges listed

No.9 125 NOS JHP 17.0 1,685 45,100 1.575
No.9 158 HDY XTP 15.0 1,470 44,900 1.580
No.9 180 HDY XTP 13.0 1,293 43,000 1.575


Seems like H110 and 296 are pretty maximized to me. More velocity with same bullets running at lower pressures...seems good to me

Let's not forget 2400 and Blue dot. I use a lot of 2400

125 gr
1.57 5.6 Fed. 200 Blue Dot 14.5 1,795 34,000
1.57 5.6 Fed. 200 2400 17 1,730 32,700

158 gr
1.575 5.6 Fed. 200 Blue Dot 10.7 1,420 33,300
1.575 5.6 Fed. 200 2400 14 1,295 32,500

180 gr
1.58 5.6 Fed. 200 Blue Dot 9.7 1,260 33,300
1.58 5.6 Fed. 200 2400 12.5 1,300 32,700

Seems to me that the H110 is King here? I use 2400 in my 3" though

did I miss something?

oh and if you don't know what the numbers are then you shouldn't be reloading...

 

[joneb]

did I miss something?

Barrel length, the type test barrel or weapon used for testing. I think that some of Hodgdon's data is not of this world.

 

[pinkymingeo]

Most Hodgdon data are based on a 10" test barrel. Most of our guns don't have 10" barrels. For that matter, I suspect Hodgdon takes their test guy off his meds a few days before they let him loose with the chrono.

 

[campbell]

Barrel length, the type test barrel or weapon used for testing. I think that some of Hodgdon's data is not of this world.

If they're using a 10'' barrel, of course that's going to inflate the velocity numbers. But the claim being made is that H110/W296 is physically incapable of generating 40,000 CUP in .357 mag due to case capacity. Needless to say, this is in direct opposition to the published data. Now if he's got a case to make that they're using a test barrel that is drastically spiking the pressures, then I'd sure like to hear it. Otherwise, this seems way off.

 

[kestak]

Greetings,

158gr JSP Zero in a 6 1/2 barrel Taurus.
I tried with Blue Dot 10.2 gr and H110 16.4.

Blue Dot makes a BIG flash fireball with a medium to low recoil.
H110 makes a somewhat little flash but a big recoil.

My wife and I are not the greatest shooters around, but bench rested, I am not bad. The H110 load was quite more precise at 44 feet than the Blue Dot.

I am out of H110, but I'll certainly buy some again and try with #9 to see if there is a difference.

Thank you

 

[xring44]

I shoot alot of Win 296 in both .357 and .44, I also shoot quite alot of 2400, to me the 2400 has a much sharper recoil than the H110/296 powders at maximun loadings. Try some 240 grain Hornady XTPs in your .44 magnum with a max load of Alliant 2400, It gets downright uncomfortable in a short time. The recoil generated with this load seems rougher in my .44 magnums than a max load of Win. 296 behind a 300 grain XTP.

I would not use magnum primers with bliedot powder, velocitys vary widely and some published data warn of this.

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

I don't understand the fasination with recoil ! If I could get my Ruger srh .454 casull to kick like a 22 and hit like a 454 and be accurate ,I would do it !
you should have held off on the 44 mag and gotten the same gun 454 casull ! The recoil of the 454 is supposedly 70percent greater than a 44 mag !??I don't know for sure I havent shot a 44 mag in quite a while !

 

[alucard0822]

If they're using a 10'' barrel, of course that's going to inflate the velocity numbers. But the claim being made is that H110/W296 is physically incapable of generating 40,000 CUP in .357 mag due to case capacity. Needless to say, this is in direct opposition to the published data. Now if he's got a case to make that they're using a test barrel that is drastically spiking the pressures, then I'd sure like to hear it. Otherwise, this seems way off.

MAX pressure does not neccisarily mean max velocity. Higher AVERAGE pressure does. Hodgdon is not the only company that fudges the numbers by using a 10" test barrel, most test barrels look something like an encore barrel, no cyl/cone gap to bleed off pressure. I have chronoed H110 and #9, and both tend to run about 1400 with a 158gr XTP out of my 4" 686, the H110 has a little edge with lighter bullets #9 with heavier, but the feel is about the same. Blue dot is about 50fps slower than H110 in the lighter loads, and #9 in heavier ones. I can hardly feel the difference between the three, and outside of a more powerful chambering, or lighter revolver, there isn't nuch that can be done to further increase the recoil safely.

 

[Phil A]

kestak Greetings,
Just a small follow up: I got her a .44 magnum super redhawk with 300 grains PRVI rounds. I hope it will be enough for her. I'll perhaps try to reload them a little bit hotter later if it is not. I will NOT go with a higher caliber than that. I ain't rich!
Thank you

Good choice. I have a 44 mag in a Contender. I think I would ruin my wrist before I could wear out the gun. - Phil