.357mag as a Survival Rifle Caliber

[Glock_10mm]

I am building a survival gun based on an overunder shotgun (a poor mans Kreighoff). I plan to cut the barrel down to 22" and have a custom barrel insert made for the upper chamber. I plan to leave it in permanently, but it won't be fixed should I ever decide, or need the double barrel 12ga. I live in South Florida, but sail down to the Caribbean, travel throughout the Eastern US, and up into South Eastern Canada and plan to keep this in the boat/car during any of my travels. My inclination was first .30-06 or the .308win as for the obvious all around advantages each offer, but a friend suggested .357mag. The .357mag buffalo bore from an 18" barrel produces something like 1800fps which is impressive. The .357 ammo is smaller which will allow me to carry more on the buttstock. The other advantage would be the ability to shoot .38spl wadcutters at small game offering dual purpose. Also being that the bottom chamber will still be a 12ga, I will have the ability to both shoot shot for fowl and sabots for larger game should I need to. I plan to attach a sling to the shotgun to carry 24 shells, and have a pack on the side of the buttstock to carry a handful of rifle cartridges. The obvious advantage of the .357/.38 is that I should be able to carry twice as much ammo over a traditional rifle cartridge. I considered carrying several other inserts but it didn't make any sense given the lack of storage.

The other other advantage being able to carry a .357 mag revolver as backup and share ammo. But this is of lesser importance.

I would like any of your ides on this and is it a feasable choice or should I just go for the .308 and carry less ammo and lose the ability to hunt varmits?

Your experience is appreciated on this. Thanks

 

[chestnut ridge]

Have you considered a H&R Handi-Rifle? They have extra barrels
that can be fitted to the orginal receiver for 75 to 125 dollars;
depending on the caliber. Shotgun barrels can be fitted also.
Another option would be the rifle shotgun combination sold at CDNN.
It is 12 gauge over 7x57R. I have one; and the rifle shoots 5 shot
groups under 2 inches using S&B ammo. I paid 299 for mine; I think
they now have the same deal with 100 rounds of 7x57R included.
Use targetsportsinc.com to check if any are still available.
I looked and the stock # is EAAIZH941

 

[ArmedBear]

Save yourself the hassle and get one of these, if you really think that's what you want.

http://www.savagearms.com/24f12.htm
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/combination_shotgun-Rifle/SPR94.asp


A 20 Gauge 870 would provide more utility, probably. With a rifled slug barrel, it will work as a brush rifle like the .357, but it can also be a legitimate bird, rabbit and defense shotgun with one or more other barrels.

Praytell, what O/U were you planning to butcher?

 

[Brian Williams]

Really save your money, and get a 1894C Malin. Well not really a 1894C will mean you either start reloading or you burn lots of ammo.

 

[akodo]

the ideal do all gun I have seen was a combo gun 20 guage plus rifle caliber (.243 iirc) BUT it also had an insert you could slide into the 20 guage side that was a 12 inch long .22 barrel, so you had all 3 bases covered, shotgun for birds and close action, serious rifle for big game and long action, and .22 for small critters like rabbits.

 

[Glock_10mm]

I appreciate all the info. I've looked at alot of the pre made survival rifle/shotgun combos, but I've yet to find one (short of the krieghoff), that offers exactly what I'm looking for. The other advantage of making my own is the ability to change the insert should I ever be going in a different region (ie go to North Canada, I might switch out the barrel insert for a .44mag/.44spl). I wouldn't carry a second insert with me but I would pick the best one for the region I plan on being in. I was first stung with the idea by the Springfield M6 scout models, but found them to be too bare bones, though the M6 pistol/rifle is quite cool. The Savage is more to my liking than the Remington, but again I feel the ability to keep a larger caliber insert at home if I'm going in deep to be a good deal. The H&R is nice but I don't plan on carrying a second barrel and would prefer the ability to have a second shot of some sort. If only it was a double barrel, then my problem would be close to solved. I do like the H&R Medusa 47 revolver though, very ingenious, and a perfect mate should I go with the .357mag insert. I've read it officially accepts 20 different calibers but in practice it accepts more like 40 different ones including .32acp in a pinch!

I plan on chopping a Ruger Red Label All Weather O/U. Its an expensive chop, but for the quality of gun I plan to build (and being all weather), I feel it is the perfect platform for my build.

I'm decent with photoshop, so here's a rough idea of what it would look like with the sling, pouch, and chopped:




So what do you guys think about the .357mag/.38spl, is it a viable choice for all around use?

Armed Bear - I love the 870 and have aslo gone back and forth on it. I love the 87- Marine Magnum with a top folding stock!

Something like this:

 

[Deaf Smith]

10mm,

Buffalo Bore .357 magnum 158gr JHPs get 2100 fps from a 18 inch barrel Marlin rifle according to their website. That ain't far at all from a 30/30! And their 180s go near 2000!

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

And plain old .357 Magnum 158s get 1700, which ain't bad. Yes, combined whot a shotgun it would make a good survival weapon.

But may I make a suggestion? Get the barrel chambered for .357 Maximum. That's a .357 Magnum but with the case a bit longer (.315"). It will still shoot .38s and .357 Magnums, but the Maximum case will hold more powder, and thus even higher velocity for the same weight bullet. That way, 158 at 2400 is a real possiblity. The web site on it gives 14 inch barrel 180gr slugs at 1962 (so just think what a 18 inch bbl will do!)

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerPowder2Guide/Rifle/AA1680/ThompsonContenderloads/357%20Remington%20Maximum%20page%20105.pdf#search='.357%20Maximum'

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/?Caliber=357+Maximum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

That would allow .38 Spl swcs for rabbits, and full Maximums for deer. The 12 guage would be better for birds and with slugs Moose (or bear if they get to near.)

 

[Glock_10mm]

Thanks for the tip on the .357max -> I've heard of it, but never seen anything chambered for .357mag/max, so just assumed they were different like 22LR vs 22WMV. That makes it even more versatile, and 2400fps is incredible. A guy I met chrono'd a round I thought was buffalo bore at 1800fps, but I must be wrong (even though that number was decent enough for me).

Thanks

 

[Greybeard7]

I'm with Brian Williams on this one. Get a Marlin 1894C and a Ruger GP100 for your travels along the east coast. If you have to walk and carrying ammo is a concern, consider how many shotshells you want to carry and what you plan to do with them. (If I was considering a "survival" situation I wouldn't be carrying a shotgun just for the number of rounds per ounce tradeoff.)

Def Smith also has it right. Carry different loads of .357. Some 125 gr, some 158 gr, some 180 gr and possibly a few rounds of shot for snakes. (I think 158 gr SJSPs would be the most universal option.)

Both weapons provide quick, and multiple, follow up shots as opposed to only having two shots with the over/under. Ammo weight versus rounds carried seems to be a good tradeoff with reasonable power. Also, the weight of both weapons combined would probably not be significantly different than the one combo gun.

If self defense is an issue, and many advocate being judged by twelve rather than being carried by six, consider your defense in court when the length of your shot is presented by the prosecution.

If you've got the funds for a sailboat, I would suggest that different tools would be more appropriate. (A .50BMG Barret comes to mind. )

I know this doesn't really address your question about the over/under combo, but IMO the logistics I would consider in a "survival" situation preclude that as a choice. Of course, the scenario you are contemplating could be very different.

Good luck,

GB7

 

[P-35/53]

I have a Puma stainless steel .357 lever action rifle . I also have the Buffalo Bore rdounds . This would part of my SHTF gun battery.

 

[JohnKSa]

Why not have your insert made in 10mm? Then you'd already have a matching pistol.

 

[461]

It sounds like a very good combo and would easily handle anything you're likely to encounter. My advice would be to check the accuracy on the barrel insert as I've had less than good luck on inserts and converters in the past. I got accuracy that was worthless from my experiment and chalked it up to experience.

 

[griz]

That sounds like an interesting idea to me. But before you buy the Red Label, check to see if the trigger is recoil operated. If so it would seem to a problem generating enough recoil with a 38 to get the shotgun barrel to be ready to fire. I don't have any experience with single trigger double guns, but it's worth looking in to. Good luck.

 

[Mike_in_OC]

I will suggest the 12ga and the .223. The .223 now has lots of ammo to choose from 45 grain up to 75gr +. Ammo carry should be same as .357

 

[MachIVshooter]

That Remington SPR94 in 12 ga./ .30-06 might just have to join my collection. Does anyone know is they are US made or imported? If it is imported, it's definitely a no-go; I can't stand guns that are made elsewhere and passed off as American.

 

[gulogulo1970]

Mach, I think they are Russian made.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Mach, I think they are Russian made

That's F#$%ing Bulls*&t. Guess I'll have to look at the Savage's.

(I kinda suspected they may be, with Remington importing the 798 and 799)

 

[jeepmor]

Sounds feasible, but smithing might be expensive

I like this idea on the surface, but if the inserts do offer aiming issues, it will be with your bullets, not your shotgun. I'd rather spend the money on factory outfit combo if only to skip the frustration encountered prototyping or the frustration of the insert wandering my shot more than acceptable.

And if you want an accurate 357/38 for taking game, there are some issues to address here. Power looks plenty adequate though. But why not the 10mm cartridge, it is in the same power realm as your 357mag pick. Harder to get though, this I know for I have one too.. .and probably just answered my question.

I like the idea of a rough and ready gun and just don't see this project costing less than a factory made rifle by employing an existing over/under with inserts and smith work. Particularly if the rifle is not accurate enough for taking small game like rabbit at 25-50 yards.

jeepmor

 

[gbran]

Crossfire MK-1

12ga/.223 pump.

 

[carebear]

The Crossfire is probably too EBR looking for all up and down the coast and into the Carib.

 

[gunsmith]

another vote for

1894C Malin.

I had more fun with that gun then I did with my M1A or tricked out AR

 

[Glock_10mm]

Well thanks for all the input.

To make a long story short, I'm going with the red label, because I was offered one hell of a deal on a slightly used one that had some cosmetic damage. Since I plan to chop it anyway, and use it for survival, the depreciation I would face in letting it slide around in the trunk and in chopping it, has already been done for me.

The two aspects I do not like are the overall weight and the "only 2" round capability, but this is for a specific survival aspect in mind and those two are greatly outway some of the other shortfalls I have fond with any other systems (there is no one perfect solution as they all have a bad side...even the krieghoff falls short by costing a fortune). This is more of a wilderness survival gun than an end all scenario survival gun. If I end up in an end all scenario (where I might encounter two legged animals if you get my drift) I plan on a larger arsenal of semi autos. If an end all, riot, or marshall law type atmosphere erupts, I plan on staing in my home where I have better things than a 2 shot gun.

As for 10mm - My ccw is only to get to my primary weapon on an average day so ammo compatibility is not a huge issue with me though I have considered the versatility of the 10mm/40 as an option. The problem is, when travelling to Canada, etc, I cannot take the handgun in without huge hassels (or smuggling which isn't worth it, especially if you are called upon to use it and then explain yourself). I have a place in Toronto and can register the shotgun up there so I can freely move it between the countries. As for a handgun it takes licensing in every province (close to 9 months and alot of money & paperwork) before its all over. I might do it one day, but not today. So in that scenario, there is no handgun so compatibility doesnt matter. Also if I fly somewhere, I cannot take ammo. As better 10mm ammo (doubletap, etc) is not available, and worse yet, 10mm alone is not that easy to find, I might end up without any at all! My chances of finding the .357 or .38 are pretty good, only bested by .22, .229, 9mm and .308, with only the first and last have any merit at all for the application I would need. Lastly .357mag and 10mm auto are ballistic twins and the .357 gives me more options and availability. Besides the layout I have for ammo storage on the gun is about 30-40 rifle cartridges and 24 shotgun shells, if I need more I'm in more trouble than that gun can get me out of!

I do like the crossfire MK-1 but getting that through a border will be harder than a double barrel shotgun. Also I feel the .223 doesnt provide all the aspects I'm looking for.

As with the.357max, I will definately check that out, why not have more power and even more options !!!

I have a .38 2 3/4" insert and have not had any trouble with it (got it from Ace Dube mcace.com). I contacted him to see about the large insert (he does 18" versions). I plan on having one made of stainless steel and rifled if he can do it. Other than weight, what problems have any of you had with the inserts??? Do any of you know a custom shop that may be able to help make one for me if I dont hear back from Ace or he's unable to do it? I figure an 18" insert thats rifled should act just like any regular barrel. I also plan to modify the ejector and loctite the chamber so that it is semi permanently attached and not constantly moving. Any info from people that have used inserts would be appreciated.

Well thanks for all the input, any more info on the .357max being sufficient or on people who have experience with inserts or who know someone who can help do the custom work if I cannot get it done by mcace would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Glock_10mm]

Oh one last thing...

Since the barrel insert will not be permanent and the barrel is over 18", I do not need to AOW this right?

From what I know, AOW is for fixed, manual loading, rifle shotgun combos from 12-17.9 inches (among other things). Any expertise in this area is appreciated, though I have a feeling I will not need to AOW it.

 

[Brian Williams]

As long as the barrel is over 18" it is fine, just remember to measure from the breechface to the end of the berrel on the inside of the barrel. Basically get a dowel and measure the inside of the barrel from the breech face to the muzzle and then while holding the dowel next to the barrel with the muzzle mark next to the muzzle, use the breech end of the dowel to measure from to mark the barrel at a point greater than 18" from the breech. Most people recommend at least 18.5 to keepfrom screwing up.

 

[Brian Williams]

Also if the insert is less than 18" the outer barrel is used as the measuring point, not the insert.

This sound like it is going to cost a little bit to have all the work done, might be cheaper to get an NEF and have 2, a rifle and a shotgun.

I still think a Marlin is the way to go for Survival guns.