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36 vs 44 revolvers,? Again...

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by ZVP, Dec 3, 2018.

  1. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  2. Ironhand54

    Ironhand54 Member

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    No nickel but yes,that's the one. Very comfortable to shoot.

    Ironhand
     
  3. Springfeld

    Springfeld Member

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    I like to have both but I believe the 36 is more versatile in cap and ball. The 44 is very effective and is not a bad choice.
    The reason I say the 36 cap and ball is the most versatile is ammo weight, and efficiency (price) small game or self defense. If larger game come into play a rifle or carbine is the better choice for those situations. Each persons perspective of whats efficient or adequate varies so I say choose what makes you the most comfortable.
    I like the 1851 navy in 36 for target shooting and just mid game hunting.
     
  4. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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    Maybe he just liked the gun. I have a 44 mag and several 357's and 3 9mm pistols and my HD gun for at least 25 years has been a SW model 15 38 Special. I see no reason to change.

    The only BP revolver I own is a Richland Arms 44 Remington with the dreaded brass frame. It was given to me to repair and then after I repaired it the guy gave it to me. I have never fired it. I did buy a mold but haven't cast any balls yet. I have no balls.:D

    A while back someone posted a picture of an original Remington solid frame gun in 36 caliber and the gun was scaled down to the caliber, not a full size 44 frame with smaller holes in it. I would be all over one of those if they made them.:thumbup:
     
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  5. ShotgunDave

    ShotgunDave Member

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    There it is. So it was .40 caliber. Thanks for clarifying that Jim.
     
  6. Ironhand54

    Ironhand54 Member

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    Ratshooter, such guns were produced Mine is from Navy Arms,made by Euroarms.

    Be careful as some 36 Remington copies are made on the 44 frame

    IronHand
     
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  7. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    My understanding was that they were a true .40 cal as we measure today. Was that certainly the case then, and not using a .41 cal projectile?

    I’ve always leaned towards larger caliber with 45 ACP in a 1911 as optimal. I’d certainly take a .40 over a .375, especially on the same frame.

    Honestly I’ve contemplated a Pietta .44 Navy and getting a .36 cylinder and barrel assembly as well. Just something appealing about a combo.
     
  8. midland man

    midland man Member

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    well I owned two 44c pistols in the not period correct 51' navy but after buying and trying the period correct 36c 51' navy I sold both 44's and bought another 36c 51' navy and I just love the 36's in the 51' navy great shooters and less lead/powder costs!
     
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  9. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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    The 44 sized frame is what I would avoid. I did look at the Pietta guns. I see they make a 44 Navy on a 51 frame but the frame is brass. I didn't find a 44 with a steel frame on the 51 Navy. No matter. I'm not going to buy one but it did make me curious. I have looked on the Navy Arms site a few days ago. They are nothing like they used to be.
     
  10. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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  11. Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave Member

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    I think the answer is purely, accuracy.

    Here is a quick summation of most of the actually documented fights between Hickok and those that he killed. Please note that it is difficult to say the .36 demonstrates "stopping power", and in fact when the .36 ball does "drop" a man, it would've probably been as effective a shot had Hickok been using a single action shooting .22LR :confused:

    1865
    The Davis Tutt duel, 75 yards, and Tutt is hit in the chest below the 5th rib, the ball traveled across the chest cavity likely damaging the heart.
    Tutt called out, "Boys, I'm killed," ran onto the porch of the local courthouse and back to the street, where he collapsed and died,

    1867
    Hickok reportedly was involved in a dispute with drunken cowboys inside a saloon. One of them pushed him, causing him to drop his drink. Hickok struck the man, and four of the cowboy's friends rose with guns drawn. Hickok persuaded the men to step outside where he faced all four at 15 paces, or about 40 feet (12 m). The bartender counted down and Hickok killed three of the men with a bullet to the head and wounded the fourth with a shot through the cheek bone

    1869,
    Bill Mulvey leveled his cocked rifle at Hickok. Hickok waved his hand past Mulvey at some onlookers and yelled, "Don't shoot him in the back; he is drunk." Mulvey wheeled his horse around to face those who might shoot him from behind, and before he realized he had been fooled, Hickok shot him through the temple

    Later in the same year Samuel Strawhun, a cowboy, who "made remarks against Hickok," and Hickok killed him with a shot through the head.

    1871
    In an instant, Hickok pulled the triggers again sending two bullets into Coe's abdomen, and Coe lived a day or two after the shootout, then died.

    There is another fight where Hickok only killed one of the two men that he shot, but the location of the wounds (he shot the fellow who died, twice) is unknown.

    So from the above documentation, it seems that we can actually say instead of guessing, the Navy .36's used by Hickok were accurate, AND that Hickok seemed to like to aim for the head, and those not shot in the head, did not immediately become incapacitated.

    LD
     
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  12. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    The problem is it's difficult to know the reasons for the preference of another when they are unwilling or unable to explain those preferences. The people in ancient times sometimes had habits that defy modern thought. They generally also had a skill set that allowed those ideas to be viable.

    If you can get a 36 to perform the task you need a pistol for then use it. If it won't perform that task you need to move on to something that will. After all, there is the story that Daniel Boone killed a bear with a knife. While it may have been good enough for Daniel Boone… I believe I would prefer my dad's M1A, with three extra magazines s'il vous plaît
     
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  13. Gordon

    Gordon Member

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    I'm a bit conflicted on the 5 shot .38 caliber S&W #2 , I never heard of that ! I can not find reference on the link you supplied.

    Added: I see you corrected the caliber reference, they were 6 shots in .32 tho.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  14. grter

    grter Member

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    This is what I like. These are facts and they seem to point out that shot placement and the ability to make accurate shots is what will most likely determine the outcome of a self defense situation. I think extra shots (the more available the better) are a good thing.

    I am not convinced that more powerful handguns will make much of a difference as far as quick incapacitation when vital areas are not hit. The only advantage of a larger caliber handgun may be range and/or penetration.

    Parlor guns would have probably lacked the range that gave Hickok an advantage and penetration would be too unpredictable.

    I get the impression Hickok knew the characteristics of firearms in general very well and chose what worked. He probably knew that a hand cannon is not going to make him any safer and chose what would work best given the circumstances he would most likely encounter.

    I also agree with officerswife Hickok probably had a skill set that made his choice of arms viable but I'd be willing to bet that Daniel Boone wished he had a capable firearm or maybe even bear spray (unless he wanted the hide) instead when facing that bear.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  15. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    An advantage to a larger caliber is a bigger hole that bleeds faster. Not always are critical hits incapacitating when they need to be. This has often been documented. And sometimes even a larger caliber still didn’t prove fast enough. But faster is always better in my eyes, as is the overlapping usefulness of a larger caliber. The one disadvantage might be quicker follow up shots, but with a single action I’m not sure that’s significant for the majority of shooters.

    As stated Hickock might have had the same kill ratio using a .32 since most shots were to the skull.
     
  16. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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  17. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

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    Evidently you really don't want one. I found these in a 15 minute search:

    https://www.cabelas.com/product/sho...vy-steel-cal-bp-revolver/2359036.uts?slotId=7

    https://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/1851-Hartford-Navy-Casehardened-Steel-44-7-1-2-110p1169.htm

    http://www.oldsouthfirearms.com/1851coltnavyrevolver-steelframe75octbarrel.aspx

    https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/han...851-1861-navy-collection/1851-navy-steel.html

    Regards,

    Jim
     
  18. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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    Thanks Jim. And nope I didn't find those. But like I said in post #34 I wasn't going to buy one anyway. But the thread did make me curious and sent me to looking. I am always on the hunt for a new gun. I just don't get to buy all I want. My eyes are bigger than my wallet.:mad::thumbdown:

    And this is what I had in mind and couldn't find with a steel frame. I should have made myself more clear.

    https://www.cabelas.com/product/sho...ber-black-powder-revolver/735152.uts?slotId=5
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  19. Gaucho Gringo

    Gaucho Gringo Member

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    I also have of the Euroarms .36 Remington with a 5 1\2" barrel and a cartridge conversion cylinder. It feels more like shooting the 1851 navy or an 1860 with a Navy gripframe which I also own. I also have 2 .44 1858's so I can speak from personal experience.
     
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  20. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

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    Gaucho is your 36 built on the 44 sized frame or on the smaller Police model frame like in the link I posted above? The 44 frame is way too large for just a 36 size ball.
     
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  21. Eyrie G. Dogg

    Eyrie G. Dogg Member

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    A Colt Navy using 116.66 grain pointed bullets was not enough during Sepoy Rebellion/Indian Mutiny (1857). It would kill an assailant but not quite soon enough although this is just one instance. No doubt, Colt .36 killed many a Sepoy but was generally considered unsatisfactory. Maybe round ball would have been a better choice in projectiles. If given a choice, why bring a .36 to a .44 fight? Same result in using a .38 variant during the Philippine Insurrection.


    Navy not enough Capture.PNG






    http://www.royalengineers.ca/India_06.html
     
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  22. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    Sounds like that British officer would have been better served with round ball.
     
  23. Gaucho Gringo

    Gaucho Gringo Member

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    My .36 is not built on .44 or a Police frame. It is in size roughly in between the two pictured in the link as were the originals. From what I have read over the years it is kind of confusing with Remington which 4 or 5 different frame sizes for revolvers depending on which book you read. It took me awhile to get it partly straightened out and I am sure I still don't know it all. I will see if I can dig them out of the safe and post a picture or two.
     
  24. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

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    I have a pipe dream about another Pietta Navy .36 "type" pistol but until I, too, acquire the mad money for it, it is on the back burner but fresh in my mind.

    Ask and you shall receive, sir! :)

    https://www.cabelas.com/product/sho...-sheriff-cal-bp-revolver/2359029.uts?slotId=9

    Regards,

    Jim
     
  25. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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