38 wcf (38-40)

[Catpop]

Does anyone have any suggestions on reloading this caliber for an 1873 winchester made in 1887. I'm especially interested in which smokeless powder. I will only use lead bullets and want to keep it below 1200 fps.
The Blackhills cartridges (lead) I shot were really accurate (1-3/4" group at 100 yards). More so than Remington jhp (2-3/4" group). Maybe bc I do not have a pristine bore and the lead grips better?
*A buddy of mine chronoed the ultra max today and got 1125 fps*
Thanks.

 

[medic15al]

Made in 1887 I would not use smokeless. I would load 35-40 grains BY VOLUME of FFG black powder under a 180 grain cast bullet sized at .401 with SPG or other blackpowder lube. I use the LEE 2.2 dipper for 35 grns and the 2.5 for 40 grn loads.

Whytes Leatherworks provides the bullets.

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

 

[GBExpat]

Does anyone have any suggestions on reloading this caliber for an 1873 winchester made in 1887. I'm especially interested in which smokeless powder. I will only use lead bullets and want to keep it below 1200 fps. ...

Checkout Trailboss propellant.

In this past year I have taken an interest reloading .32-20 ammo (initially, for my granddfather's old Colt Army Special) and have found Trailboss to be an excellent, low-pressure, case-filling, "smokeless" alternative to black powder in the old guns.

My 100gr lead Trailboss pistol loads average between 1000 and 1100fps when fired in my Marlin 27-S rifle.

Enjoy!

 

[Catpop]

Just for info:
A buddy of mine chronoed the Ultra max in his old 1873 Winchester today and got an average of 1125 fps.

 

[Don McDowell]

Does anyone have any suggestions on reloading this caliber for an 1873 winchester made in 1887. I'm especially interested in which smokeless powder. I will only use lead bullets and want to keep it below 1200 fps.
The Blackhills cartridges (lead) I shot were really accurate (1-3/4" group at 100 yards). More so than Remington jhp (2-3/4" group). Maybe bc I do not have a pristine bore and the lead grips better?
*A buddy of mine chronoed the ultra max today and got 1125 fps*
Thanks.

If you follow the saami spec load recommendations you should be alright with smokeless. I shoot bludot loads from the Alliant web data in an 1889 Marlin.
Olde Eynsford 2f also works very well and give good velocity and accuracy in both my Colt and the Marlin, when paired with the rcbs 180 gr bullet cast from 16-1.
Also if you happen into some older once fired cases, beware that for some reason or other they crimped the primers , so before you can reload them you need to ream that crimp out of the mouth of the primer pocket.

 

[Clark]

My 1892 38-40 made in 1904 I shot with 180 gr plated 25 gr H110
Quickload thinks that was 26kpsi 2012 fps
It kicks like a 30-30.

 

[35 Whelen]

Does anyone have any suggestions on reloading this caliber for an 1873 winchester made in 1887. I'm especially interested in which smokeless powder. I will only use lead bullets and want to keep it below 1200 fps.
The Blackhills cartridges (lead) I shot were really accurate (1-3/4" group at 100 yards). More so than Remington jhp (2-3/4" group). Maybe bc I do not have a pristine bore and the lead grips better?
*A buddy of mine chronoed the ultra max today and got 1125 fps*
Thanks.

We must have a kindred spirit! In the course of about two months, I acquired a 1903 Colt Bisley in 38-40 and two Winchester 1873's; and 1886 production and an 1889 production.
The bore of the '86 is gone so I may have it re-lined. The '89 though is a little better. The only smokeless load I've tried is 5.0 grs. of Clays and a commercial 180 gr. RNFP. Don't know the velocity, but it shoot pretty good at 50 yds.:



I got a really good deal on some GOEX 2f black powder and tried it with the same bullet. Much to my dismay, velocity was under 1100 fps with a case full of powder. Tried Pyrodex P next and velocity averaged 1386 fps.

I ordered some of the bullets from Whyte Leather Works almost a month ago. After not having heard from him a week after send him the money, I sent him an e-mail to which he replied something along the lines of "...oh yeah...well, I've been busy and I'm getting ready for a CAS shoot, so I won't be able to get those cast and shipped until next week." That was over two weeks ago, and he's now lost a customer as I'll likely just cast my own.

Have fun with that 38-40!

35W

 

[Clark]

35 Whelen,
I have a Win 1873 in 44-40 that was also made in 1886.
That model number and that manufacturing date are confusing, due to the Win 1886 model.

I also have a 38-40 Colt New Service revolver made in 1920 that I would not want to shoot with rifle loads for a Win 92. More possible confusion.

 

[MEHavey]

Don't use TrailBoss thinking that it will be less stress/more like BP.
In fact Trailboss produces an exceptionally fast pressure spike.

If the rifle wasn't designed for/of the Nitro-Proofed generation, stick with BP.

 

[Don McDowell]

35W check with this outfit for 38-40 bullets.http://www.bigskycastbullets.com/

 

[GBExpat]

re: Trailboss

Here is a Thread that touches (in several places) on that point.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?203003-Trailboss-pressure-vs-velocity

 

[Catpop]

Sooooooo - Is there a non corrosive powder alternative to load in old BP guns. I hate the intense and quickly required cleanup after a BP shoot- esp in a non muzzle loader.
I don't think Blackhills or Ultra Max are blackpowder. What do they use?

 

[35 Whelen]

Thanks for the link, Don.

I'm a rabid bullet caster, but haven't bought a mould for my 38-40's. I really bought the 38-40's as an investment that I can shoot and am waiting to see if the new will wear off shooting them before I dive off into yet another bullet mould to add to the dozens I already have. So far I've already loaded and fired 250 commercial cast bullets and have the others I mentioned on order. If the interest is still there after those are gone, I'll probably spring for a custom mould from Accurate. Since I'll likely stick with black powder, I'll order a design that holds LOTS of bullet lube.

I personally have never used Trail Boss and at around $40 per lb. (9 oz. @ $25+/-) at the LGS, I doubt I ever will.

35W

 

[medic15al]

Real Black powder it self isn't corrosive, it is however hydroscopic. It sucks moisture into the residue.

Pyrodex is reported by some to be corrosive, I have no experience with it.

Using Ballistol "moosemilk" A SAA clone will clean up rather quickly. I soak the bore and gun heavily with it and often clean the next morning. No rust showing after several years yet. And I live in frog choking humid Alabama.

If you are using a black powder lube clean up in the bore is very soft and easy.

 

[35 Whelen]

Sooooooo - Is there a non corrosive powder alternative to load in old BP guns. I hate the intense and quickly required cleanup after a BP shoot- esp in a non muzzle loader.
I don't think Blackhills or Ultra Max are blackpowder. What do they use?

Black powder in and of itself is not corrosive. But it is hygroscopic which means it absorbs moisture from its environment. It's my understanding though that Pyrodex IS corrosive. Either way, both clean up easily with soap and water. Yeah, it's a bit of a headache compared to cleaning up after smokeless, but not that bad. A few months ago I fired some Pyrodex in one of my Uberti SA's. This particular revolver has no finish to speak so I cleaned to bore and chambers and left the exterior of the revolver sitting un-cleaned for several days. No rust or corrosion whatsoever. So who knows.

The guys who shoot CAS with BP use a solution called Ballistol and cut it with 7 parts water and put it in a spray bottle. They say it's the cats @$$ for cleaning up BP residue. I intend to get some.

35W

 

[Don McDowell]

Sooooooo - Is there a non corrosive powder alternative to load in old BP guns. I hate the intense and quickly required cleanup after a BP shoot- esp in a non muzzle loader.
I don't think Blackhills or Ultra Max are blackpowder. What do they use?

No there isn't anything between real blackpowder and smokeless. The subs all require that you clean the gun and the cases, and they are much harder on the cases especially than black.They also run much higher pressure than black and in some instances much higher than a number of different smokeless loads.
Black Powder cleanup is anything but intense, blow a couple of breaths down the barrel push a dry patch on a jag, and follow with a couple damp with just plain water, followed by a couple more dry. Then hit it with a bore solvent to remove the carbon build up and then an oiled patch.
Don't want to shoot black then just simply get a good reloading manual and follow the data contained there, pressures will be the same as black, velocity may be a bit higher, could also be lower...
Put the deprimed cases in a coffee can ,drop in a scoop of oxyclean, fill the can about 2/3 full of hot water, shake it around, drain and rinse, let the cases dry.. Dang near takes more time to type this all out than it does to do it.

 

[Don McDowell]

35 whelen, the rcbs 180 mould works very well. I just got to buying commercial cast for some of these cartridges that don't get the work out the bpcr rifles get, mostly to save me time and alloy. When you cast enough bullets for 2 people to shoot bpcr/bptr competitively you go thru a couple hundred pounds of alloy very fast, and the time it takes...

 

[35 Whelen]

35 whelen, the rcbs 180 mould works very well. I just got to buying commercial cast for some of these cartridges that don't get the work out the bpcr rifles get, mostly to save me time and alloy. When you cast enough bullets for 2 people to shoot bpcr/bptr competitively you go thru a couple hundred pounds of alloy very fast, and the time it takes...

I own two RCBS handgun moulds (44-250KT & 45-255) and both cast magnificently accurate bullets, so RCBS was the first place I looked. However, not knowing much about loading black powder, I was afraid that style bullet wouldn't hold enough lube to keep the fouling soft. Will it?

35W

 

[Don McDowell]

Yes does hold enough lube. And like the other two moulds you mentioned it shoots incredibly well. The 1889 Marlin actually feeds that bullet better than the ones I cast with the original Ideal loading tool.
I have come to prefer Bullshops NASA lube for the handgun/wcf cartridges.