380 v 9mm Mak for pocket personal protection
- Thread starter jski
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The P-64 is finished to a higher standard than most mass-produced handguns today. I would consider 90gr CorBon load for carry. Good alternative was Hornady XTP which seems to be made of unobtainium unless one buys expensive loads like Buffalo Bore.
Sistema1927
Member
I have 3 different types of 9x18 pistols: Makarov, CZ82, and P64. The 1st two are a joy to shoot, but the P64, even after replacing springs and doing other things recommended, is painful to shoot.
But, those are range guns. The pocket pistol that I carried for years was the Kahr PM9. It has recently been supplanted by the Sig P365. Both have been reliable, both are manageable in the recoil department, both are lighter than any of the Com Block pistols, and both are chambered in the more powerful 9x19.
But, those are range guns. The pocket pistol that I carried for years was the Kahr PM9. It has recently been supplanted by the Sig P365. Both have been reliable, both are manageable in the recoil department, both are lighter than any of the Com Block pistols, and both are chambered in the more powerful 9x19.
Ignition Override
Member
.380 Auto ammo is Very close to the power of 9x18 Mak ammo. Statistics I've read show very little difference.
My .380 Russian Mak is a good bit easier to conceal than my CZ 'PCR' and Sig P228.
And the Mak is much more pleasant for practice than the P-64. The P-64 just isn't pleasant to use and I would never have any proficiency with it-no matter how cool it looks and feels.
No matter how appealing the looks and nifty size, be very honest with yourself, and also about "pocket carry".
My .380 Russian Mak is a good bit easier to conceal than my CZ 'PCR' and Sig P228.
And the Mak is much more pleasant for practice than the P-64. The P-64 just isn't pleasant to use and I would never have any proficiency with it-no matter how cool it looks and feels.
No matter how appealing the looks and nifty size, be very honest with yourself, and also about "pocket carry".
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george29
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Just my opinion: I am old school "bigger is better" however, most of my professional life had to carry approved calibers and weapons, for the early part of my career this meant no HP whatsoever, nothing larger than 9mm ball (usually 115gr), I was a patrolman so I also carried a .38 snubbie (S&W60). I witnessed investigators with 38's, 380's, 32's and a few that carried 22's in undercover mode.
I've seen shootings, been in a few and never witnessed an injured cop but I have seen DOA's and immediate incapacitated criminals with the above calibers, more than a few with the 22.
I've served overseas in an advisory position (long ago) and know more than a few Vietnam veterans who carry 32's as their primary SD, one a Kel Tec the other a Beretta Tomcat. One of the guys owns and operates a local gunshop 2 miles from my house and even though he has numerous SD guns salted around his shop, it's his Tomcat that's the first to go to get him to a rifle.
Israeli Sky Marshals utilized the Beretta 70 and if you read the link even engaged 3 terrorists on the tarmac, successfully. They also used the M70 when they attacked the hijacked Sabena Aircraft in the 70's, once again, successfully.
I have faced a trio of gangbangers with my NAA 22 but that's because that's all I had with me (I owned a SBH 44 but that was in the house and all I did was run to Walmart at 11pm) and the saying that "no one wishes for a smaller weapon when they could have had a bigger one" is completely true. Luckily I didn't have to draw and my demeanor and hand in my pocket was enough to defuse the situation. The next day I bought a Taurus Tracker in 44 but soon sold that for a what was to be a search for the Holy Grail. Today that's an M9A3 and numerous 357's.
Short story long, IMO, 32/380/38 are all basically the same (not starting a war).
I go bike riding (motorcycle) many times with just two handguns, my S&W M&P 22LR Compact and as BUG my NAA 22M. I know what they can do and at 5 - 7 yards will hit vitals including headshots.
My question to OP is, if you're that concerned, why not a 9mm subcompact like the Kimber Micro or Sig 938 or 365?
https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/
Postscript: The best IMO 32's and 380's are Colt 1903, CZ83 and Beretta 84/85 (not necessarily in that order). All are militarily and police proven.
I've seen shootings, been in a few and never witnessed an injured cop but I have seen DOA's and immediate incapacitated criminals with the above calibers, more than a few with the 22.
I've served overseas in an advisory position (long ago) and know more than a few Vietnam veterans who carry 32's as their primary SD, one a Kel Tec the other a Beretta Tomcat. One of the guys owns and operates a local gunshop 2 miles from my house and even though he has numerous SD guns salted around his shop, it's his Tomcat that's the first to go to get him to a rifle.
Israeli Sky Marshals utilized the Beretta 70 and if you read the link even engaged 3 terrorists on the tarmac, successfully. They also used the M70 when they attacked the hijacked Sabena Aircraft in the 70's, once again, successfully.
I have faced a trio of gangbangers with my NAA 22 but that's because that's all I had with me (I owned a SBH 44 but that was in the house and all I did was run to Walmart at 11pm) and the saying that "no one wishes for a smaller weapon when they could have had a bigger one" is completely true. Luckily I didn't have to draw and my demeanor and hand in my pocket was enough to defuse the situation. The next day I bought a Taurus Tracker in 44 but soon sold that for a what was to be a search for the Holy Grail. Today that's an M9A3 and numerous 357's.
Short story long, IMO, 32/380/38 are all basically the same (not starting a war).
I go bike riding (motorcycle) many times with just two handguns, my S&W M&P 22LR Compact and as BUG my NAA 22M. I know what they can do and at 5 - 7 yards will hit vitals including headshots.
My question to OP is, if you're that concerned, why not a 9mm subcompact like the Kimber Micro or Sig 938 or 365?
https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/
Postscript: The best IMO 32's and 380's are Colt 1903, CZ83 and Beretta 84/85 (not necessarily in that order). All are militarily and police proven.
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BSA1
member
I also have the same three guns. The Mak is the classic Kommie gun and the CZ82 is not only fun to shoot but is also the most accurate.
The P64 is proof that even the Kommies can made a turd. There is nothing good about it. Sights are too small and can not be changed, it is way to heavy for it’s size, god awful double action trigger pull and the dang thing hurts when I shoot it.
As to whether the 9x18 is better than the .380 well beware of a secret Kommie plot to get rid of all .380’s in America and then to blackmail us by controlling how much 9x18 they export to us.
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cougar1717
Member
We get it, jski. You think your P64 is a great pocket carry gun.... Cool.
As much as you may like the P64, 9mak, or oddball comblock stuff, the argument just does not hold water.
Actually, if the argument is 9Mak vs 380 with one being better than the other.......then that is an argument that holds approximately 0.2gr of water! Or at least powder charge.
With less than 50fps difference, in common bullet weights of 90-95gr, they are ballistic twins. The .380 measures a common .355" diameter and the 9Mak measures the oddball .364" diameter.
I will have to say that you made me laugh when referencing Buffalo Bore ammo!
If BB ammo is to be referenced, the only thing that is dubious is the lack of a comparison to 380 Auto BB ammo.
380 Auto +P Ammo
95 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point - (1125 fps M.E. 267 ft. lbs)
20 Round Box
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=223
The fact that BB loads 9Mak and 380 to literally the same specs was probably just careless omission, right. hahahahahahahhaha!
I don't care to go into why the P64 is not an ideal pocket carry piece. Responders have already covered that.
Waxing philosophically here, but...
These are the kinds of threads that make me wonder if THR originates this stuff because it needs content. Literally, this is such an extreme opinion, that it can't actually be held by a real person. It has to be an extreme, incendiary point of view to cause outrage and response.
tactikel
Member
My LCP is 1/2 the weight, thinner, and being a .380 shoots Ruger ARX ammo. It does anything the Mak does, better, IMHO.
Ignition Override
Member
tactikel:
How does the LCP's DA trigger pull compare to the DA on a generic, actual Makarov?
My memory of using an LCP might be foggy, but if it was a true LCP, my impression wasn't good.
How does the LCP's DA trigger pull compare to the DA on a generic, actual Makarov?
My memory of using an LCP might be foggy, but if it was a true LCP, my impression wasn't good.
As best as I can determine it, the 9mm Makarov has a case capacity of 12.8 gr of H2O, the 380 11.5 gr of H2O. That gives the Mak an 11.30% greater case cap than the .380 and than AIN’T insignificant. Especially given that the .380 rides the edge of being marginal and I don’t think that’s an unfair description.
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The LCP has long trigger pull and is a challenging handgun to shoot well. It's been real long time since I shot Makarov so I can't say whether the trigger is better but the Mak is much easier to shoot well with.
Snowdog
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The 9x18 isn't really loaded to its potential. Most cartridges aren't, it seems. This is why, even though the 9x18's SAAMI max pressure is 23k PSI while the 9x17 is around 21k, the vast majority of rounds offered in either overlap in terms of energy.
Years ago, Barnaul offered Silverbear JHPs in 120gr for the 9x18. It was an awesome performer from my IJ-70. They then reduced the weight to 115gr, which continued to be a great round. They continued to change things up until they ended up with the current 94gr. Now it's nothing special.
No one should feel the need to defend the capabilities of the 9x18 or the P64. Both were made with military use in mind and should serve just fine in a defensive role. However, unless one reloads for the 9x18, they really won't see any distinct advantage over the .380 auto. When we look at the likes of Buffalo Bore, Underwood, Double Tap and those of that ilk, we can often find 9x18 loaded much closer to potential. However, we also find these same folks also load for the .380 and again, they overlap.
If "more power" is the main goal, the 9x19 isn't just a little more powerful, it's substantially more powerful and can be had in firearms nearly as compact as the P64.
Also, keep in mind that the P64 isn't drop safe. With a round in the chamber and safety off, it could very well fire if dropped on the hammer. I have read at least one report of an AD where a dropped P64 put a round through the user.
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jar
Contributing Member
Mainly because I feel greater control, accuracy, speed and faster return to initial POA with my 32acps than my 380s and with my 380s than with my 9mm Parabellums.
AbE: For example I have two Sig P290RS, one on 380 and the other 9mm. I tend to carry the 380 (or my P230) far more than the P290RS in 9mm Para and to carry one of my 32acp far more than any of the former.
Ignition Override
Member
Texas10mm: You made a valid point. Maybe a .380 handgun could be excluded from consideration.
But the reliability + ruggedness of my commercial .380 Izhevsk Makarov might be hard to surpass. This little tank has seen over 1,000 rds. with zero glitches.
You people know the Very popular "Travis Buys A Gun" (YouTube) scene in "Taxi Driver"? When traveling salesman
'Easy Andy' pulled out the PPK, maybe he should have had a Makarov instead. Better DA pull, less perceived recoil.
But the reliability + ruggedness of my commercial .380 Izhevsk Makarov might be hard to surpass. This little tank has seen over 1,000 rds. with zero glitches.
You people know the Very popular "Travis Buys A Gun" (YouTube) scene in "Taxi Driver"? When traveling salesman
'Easy Andy' pulled out the PPK, maybe he should have had a Makarov instead. Better DA pull, less perceived recoil.This is interesting: the case capacity of the 9mm Luger is 13.3 gr of H2O and, as mentioned above, the 9mm Makarov is 12.8 gr of H2O. That gives the 9mm Luger a paltry 3.91% greater cap.
Now that may be called insignificant.
Now that may be called insignificant.
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It's more of a platform issue than a ballistics issue. Most 9mm mak guns are simply outmoded by newer 9mm parabellum designs. The CZ-82 in 9x18 or .380 probably has a 9x19 equivalent in the CZ pcr or 75 compact, and a 9x18 Makarov pistol is heavier and more diffcult to shoot (IMO) than a box stock M&P Shield or Springfield XDS in 9x19 parabellum. Both are arguably cheaper options now that Makarovs have crept up in price. I wouldn't miss a mortgage payment to rush out and change my carry rig if it's already proven and your satisfied with the terminal results but I also would not start there from zero. My Russian Baikal Makarov has never failed but I would find other ways to carry one of my other pistols before packing it and it has little to do with the caliber.
Edcnh
Member
I have a P64 which is very accurate and I do not consider recoil to be excessive. As someone else stated it does throw brass into the next
county. And the DA pull is horrendous. I carry a S & W Bodyguard at times in the summer. Light weight, low recoil and easy to pocket carry. I definitely prefer the 380 over the 9 x18 as a carry gun.
county. And the DA pull is horrendous. I carry a S & W Bodyguard at times in the summer. Light weight, low recoil and easy to pocket carry. I definitely prefer the 380 over the 9 x18 as a carry gun.
It’s about comparing one of my all time favorite calibers (9X18 Mak) to one of my least favorite calibers (.380). I sold off my CZ 82 when somebody offered me more than it was worth at the time and now I wish I could buy that one back for anywhere close to what I sold it for. One of those guns that pointed and shot great straight out of the box, I wouldn’t never change a thing on it, including the crappy sights. OBTW, one of the few .380 guns that I liked happened to be a CZ 83.
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
Sorry, no commie 9Mak in my stable. For various reasons from, 1, I think they are clunky and ugly and 2, every dead NVA officer we found had some flavor of Mak on his belt.
My one 380 is used because it is small and in some clothes it is difficult to conceal a larger weapon.
My one 380 is used because it is small and in some clothes it is difficult to conceal a larger weapon.
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