Jeb Stuart
member
Now I know where the phrase "Bored to death" comes from.
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40 cal vs 9mm: Best for Self Defense?
- Thread starter Huntolive
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Trunk Monkey
member
How do you define "works better"?
If 40 caliber "works better" than 9mm or .45 ACP why isn't every Police Department in America carrying it?
Zerodefect
member
Does it matter?
When captain sugar cookie can out shoot me, I'll listen to what he says. Half of my local PD recommends that I be 100 pounds overweight.
When captain sugar cookie can out shoot me, I'll listen to what he says. Half of my local PD recommends that I be 100 pounds overweight.
With regards to self defense shooting how many of those things are actually under your control that aren't related to caliber?
Jeb Stuart
member
Shoot em with a 44! 22cal x2=44
I understand your point but I completely disagree. If you are not intent on killing the individual why would you shoot them? Do you want to get attacked or shot by them a second time? Better get yourself a stun gun if you have that attitude going into a gunfight. As the pirate at Disneyland says “dead men tell no tales”
Jeb Stuart
member
People need to get at a range and just start shooting more rather than comparing which caliber. Maybe many do need to carry a Stun Gun. Especially those that spend so much time comparing calibers. Went to the range today and shot a whole lot of rounds out of a 380, and I would not bet that I could not incapacitate you very quickly
I never worry about caliber, I just shoot them in the hand. (and I never draw first)
So you're only intent is to kill someone?
You aren't going to Disneyland with that attitude.
Closer to zero than the number in a caliber.
cslinger
Member
So as much as I am totally in the camp that common martial calibers are close enough in their ballistic / firearm pros and cons to be statistical noise vs each other, does the equation change significantly when we look at magnum/boutique calibers?
All the martial calibers have been designed and redesigned with a 2 legged threat in mind. They are also designed to stop a threat quickly. Killing is a secondary and frankly in most cases a negative outcome. Hence they have all reached a point where they are able to work within those design parameters well.
How about when we get into .44 magnum, 500 magnum, .460, 50ae etc. do these provide any measurable statistical advantage vs a two legged threat or is there ballistic advantage wasted on smaller animals so to speak. Since most of these are designed for hunting would they end up being sub optimal for defense? Not considering recoil, follow up shots, capacity etc. just round for round.
All the martial calibers have been designed and redesigned with a 2 legged threat in mind. They are also designed to stop a threat quickly. Killing is a secondary and frankly in most cases a negative outcome. Hence they have all reached a point where they are able to work within those design parameters well.
How about when we get into .44 magnum, 500 magnum, .460, 50ae etc. do these provide any measurable statistical advantage vs a two legged threat or is there ballistic advantage wasted on smaller animals so to speak. Since most of these are designed for hunting would they end up being sub optimal for defense? Not considering recoil, follow up shots, capacity etc. just round for round.
Jeb Stuart
member
9mm, 40 cal, to heck with them. I going to start EDC with a shotgun. Want to start another caliber war. Lets go. My 12ga against your 40.
Omar coming!
Omar coming!
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Valkman
Member
About a year ago or so a guy over on 1911 Forums posted a story of a crazed guy attacking his house, banging on the door and breaking windows - he was really trying to get in. The guy grabs his trusty 9mm and shoots the guy - nothing. Has absolutely no effect. The guy keeps smashing stuff and the guy keeps shooting at him to no avail. El Crazo finally makes his way into the guy's car which is parked outside. Now the homeowner tried to shot through the windshield but it was deflected. Finally the cops got there and arrested the guy who told the cops he was Death. One of his morals of the story was "if you think 9mm is good enough - you don't know what you're talking about". It was pretty powerful coming from him after the story.
I found the story: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=689905
Me I've always thought that 9mm was weak, especially after the Miami Shootout. I can't comment on .40 as I've never had or shot one, in fact I've never shot a 9mm handgun either. Just not interested. "Cheaper" and "good enough" aren't reasons (to me) to carry it when there is better out there. All my carry and SD guns are 45 acp as well as 10mm. Maybe 9mm has gotten better, but the crazed dude in that story sure didn't care.
Me, I'll keep carrying what has become my go-to gun, a XD-45 that holds 13+1 rounds of .45 Felon Repellant. With an extra mag it's plenty of ammo for me. I've been shooting .45 since the 80's and I'll stick with it.
I found the story: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=689905
Me I've always thought that 9mm was weak, especially after the Miami Shootout. I can't comment on .40 as I've never had or shot one, in fact I've never shot a 9mm handgun either. Just not interested. "Cheaper" and "good enough" aren't reasons (to me) to carry it when there is better out there. All my carry and SD guns are 45 acp as well as 10mm. Maybe 9mm has gotten better, but the crazed dude in that story sure didn't care.
Me, I'll keep carrying what has become my go-to gun, a XD-45 that holds 13+1 rounds of .45 Felon Repellant. With an extra mag it's plenty of ammo for me. I've been shooting .45 since the 80's and I'll stick with it.
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Jeb Stuart
member
Trey Veston
Member
I wonder how many people who will argue and rant and get all angry over caliber wars have declined to read that?
I've noticed that more and more frequently, people seem to not want to learn the truth, or be educated, or even be civil. They just want to argue and insult.
My take after reading that is that 9mm works most of the time, as does .40 and .45. But that 9mm fails to work much more frequently than .40 or .45.
Also, it would seem that the .357 Sig should be the ultimate self-defense round, due to his opinion that a 125gr bullet going 1200fps seems to be a magic formula. But it isn't because people don't like the cost and the recoil.
Very interesting read and took up about an hour or so of my time.
Jeb Stuart
member
I think most of the posters on this forum have been very educated on Calibers and have taken the time to seek the truth to the point of ad nauseum. Many just debate and some even have a sense of humor. To say that they do not want the truth is in itself, insulting. I say let folks carry what they want and get to the range and just shoot more and train more often with what the do carry. Personally I could care less what caliber others choose. Hey, I just re-read Moby Dick. A classic. And it took more than a hour.
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Sebastian
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- Sep 14, 2018
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Case in point. 
JR24
Member
I recall that thread, thanks for bringing it up.
Couple notes. There is nothing in evidence that a .45 or .40 would have proved any more effective in those circumstances. Sure we can argue they might not have deflected on the two instances due to momentum, but we can't know. We also have plenty of other anecdotal stories of both the "4" calibers failing to stop crazed people.
Would a bigger caliber have helped? Maybe. But we can't know.
I recall the takeaway I had was to critically think about how the situation went down and to have more ammo available, especially for HD.
IIRC the OP of that story still said they carry a 9mm, afterwards
sparkyv
Member
A few have read it, I imagine, Trey. While it is a bit dated and not a rigourous scientific study, it is based upon first-hand empirical evidence from a professional pathologist with a background in law enforcement, and the vast bulk of the information is still relevant. To ignore or completely dismiss his observations is foolhardy.
sparkyv
Member
Ouch!
sparkyv
Member
You may have missed a valuable nugget from this information, mavracer. It is useful to understand what kind of effect various calibers have upon the actual human torso vs. ballistic gelatin.
Nope not missed, just not really that valuable. Humans aren't jello and vary widely in composition I would have never assumed that bullets act in tissue exactly like they do in gel. But I also think it's extremely naive to ignore ballistic gel tests as they are an excellent way of comparing performance in a controlled way.
I'll also add that my opinion is based on many years of experience and significant study of writings on the subject not just from "the morgue". Fackler, Marshal, Jordan, Cooper, Patrick and Courtney just to name a few. I also hunted a good portion of my life with two very good veterinarians and when you do that field dressing often becomes an autopsy. I've seen game with a chest cavity turned to cherry jello by a high powered rifle run 200 yards on their last breath so I have no delusion that a COM hit with any handgun is gonna guarantee a stop. But I'm also keenly aware that there's the distinct possibility that just the sight of my gun may cause the BG to poop and stop his aggression. I feel it's best to prepare for and expect either reaction and anything in between.
WrongHanded
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You do recall correctly, the OP of that story said "..... I still pack a 9mm (and a .45, and a .380...)" Hard to tell if that means he carries different calibers at different times, or now carries 3 guns.
I think you've exposed an interesting mental trap here though:
You say there are cases where .40 and .45 have failed to stop an attacker. Very true. You also say there's no evidence that if this guy had been shooting one of those calibers rather than a 9mm (but presumably still hit the exact same spots), that the effects would have been any different. And that's also true; there's no proof of that.
Many 9mm believers will add those two things together and, and come to the conclusion that the 9mm is just as good as the .40 and .45. And I think that's faulty logic.
I recall one shot in the Miami shootout with a 9mm that stopped something like 1" from the BGs heart. A little more bullet weight (or a little more velocity) would very likely have caused a little more penetration and stopped that guy much faster. Of course then there's the argument that a different bullet might have performed differently going through his arm and clothing, and so may not have reached the same place. But that's just grasping at straws, in my opinion. A little more penetration would have done the job.
The 9mm just is not a .40 or .45.
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