40 plus caliber question

[Indifferent]

I have a totally innocent question that I hope the answers don't spiral out of control.

Why do people consider the 45 ACP the best of the big bore cartridges?

I have read guys saying they would take it over the 41 magnum, 44 special, 44 magnum, 45 long colt, 45 GAP, and 10mm cartridges.

I have seen .45 ACP revolvers, that seem like you have to do more to load them with the moon clips, or the cyclinder has half moon clips, the Revolver costs more than the other equivalent Revolvers.

I have seen Rifles chambered for the .45 ACP, and on the shelf right next to it same manufacturer is a 30-06, for the same price.

I have seen Pistols chambered in it that cost more than say the .45 GAP, or 10mm, even the 44 Magnum.

I have seen guys that like to talk power of guns and rank the .45 ACP up there, even with say a 50AE or 50GI or a 460 or 500 magnum.

Now it may just be the area I live in, but what gives? Is the cartridge really that much better than the other cartridges near its size?

 

[General Geoff]

The short answer is no.


The long answer is that it's a very popular caliber and a lot of people swear by it as the best compromise between size of gun, diameter of the projectile, recoil, and capacity. Frankly, I like 10mm a lot more, but it does recoil significantly more than .45ACP, and that turns off a lot of folks (and I don't blame them).

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that the mild recoil is one of the biggest factors behind its popularity.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

A 30-06, 50AE, 460S&W, and 500S&W will all have more recoil, and followup shots will not be as fast.

Caliber Load Bullet MV (fps) ME (ft. lbs.) Penetration (10% gel.) AIT (goats at Strasbourg) One Shot Stop % Test Brl.
.22LR CCI,Rem,Win Hi.Vel. 37grLHP 975 78 10.3" n/a 29% unk.
.22LR CCI Stinger 32gr.LHP 1262 113 9.8" n/a 34% 6" Colt
.22WMR Winchester 40gr.JHP 1400 174 13" n/a 42% 6.5" Ruger
.25ACP All 50gr.FMJ 760 64 18" n/a 23% unk.
.32ACP Winchester 60gr.STHP 970 125 6.5" n/a 63% 3.2" Wthr.
.32Mag Federal 85gr.JHP 1050 208 n/a n/a n/a 4" H&R"
.380ACP Federal Hydra-Shok 90gr.JHP 1007 200 10.5" 10.94 sec. 69% 3.6" SIG
.380ACP Fed, Rem, Win. 95gr.FMJ 955 190 17" 22.8 sec. 51% 3.6" SIG
.38Spec. Winchester +P 158gr.LHP 790 280 15.2" n/a 67% 2" S&W
.38Spec Winchester +P 158gr.LHP 996 342 15.2" 10.76 sec. 78% 4" S&W
.38Spec. Federal 158gr.RNL 708 176 28.5" 33.68 sec. 52% 4" S&W
9x19 Cor-Bon +P 115gr.JHP 1321 454 14.2" 8.92 sec. 91% 4" Glock
9x19 Rem.Golden Saber+P 124gr.JHP 1180 384 12" n/a 83% unk.
.38Super Remington +P 115gr.JHP 1300 431 n/a n/a 88% 5" test
.357Mag. Remington 125gr.SJHP 1468 583 13" 7.34 sec. 96% 4" Colt
.357Mag. Remington Med.Vel. 125gr.SJHP 1205 413 15.5" 7.94 sec. 83% 4" Colt
.40S&W Federal Hydra-Shok 180gr.JHP 950 361 15" 8.32 sec. 89% 4" S&W
.40S&W Rem.Golden Saber 165gr.JHP 1150 485 12" n/a 94% 4" S&W
10mm Winchester 175gr.STHP 1250 607 12.8" n/a 92% 4.25" S&W
10mmMV Federal Hydra-Shok 180gr.JHP 980 383 15" n/a 87% 4.25" S&W
.41Mag. Winchester 210gr.JHP 1300 789 17.5" n/a 82% 4" S&W
.44Spec. Winchester 200gr.STHP 819 298 10.4" n/a 75% 4" S&W
.44Mag. Winchester 210gr.STHP 1301 788 15.1" n/a 90% 4" S&W
.45ACP Federal Hydra-Shok 230gr.JHP 819 366 13.3" 8.40 sec. 94% 5" Colt
.45ACP Fed, Rem, Win. 230 FMJ 839 360 27" 13.84 sec. 63% 5" Colt
.45Colt Federal 225LHP 900 405 19.5" n/a 78% 4" S&W
From, the book "handgun stopping power" by Marshall and Sanow.
As you can see, only the .357 magnum will more reliably stop a threat among handgun calibers.
The more powerfull rounds like the .44 magnum will likely have bullets designed to work on animals. They will likely overpenetrate, and not fully expand in humans, thus endangering bystanders and you(by not stopping the threat.)

 

[Indifferent]

thanks

 

[Old Grump]

Short answer is it has a controllable recoil making follow up shots quicker, it has enough mass and power to penetrate the target and stay inside transferring all of its energy to the target and not to a secondary target after it penetrates. Last but certainly not least it makes a large hole and will do enough damage to take the target out of the fight.

I like my 41 magnum and by inference the 10MM and I love my 44 mag but those are hunting rounds for me not self defense rounds. When you cut through all the hyperbole from its ignorant fans it is still one of the best rounds out there for the job it was designed for and my first choice as a self defense gun.

 

[Zedo]

Nostalgia --

The 45 ACP was introduced by John Moses Browning with the 1911 Auto Colt Pistol.

Nearly a century later, the 1911 is hard to beat in terms of design. The locked breech mechanism forms the basis for most large caliber semi-auto handguns.

It's a "Goldilocks" compromise.

The 10mm results in a grip that is too large to hold for many.

41 and 44 magnum are revolver cartridges and have some inherent design issues when used in a semi-auto. Besides which, in order to manage recoil, they need to be the size/weight of a boat anchor.

40 Smith & Wesson is a compromise between 45 ACP and 9mm. Its' nearly 45 ACP ballistics in a 9mm gun frame design.

Caliber in a rifle rarely affects cost. I've seen rifles chambered in 44 magnum, but never in 45 ACP -- Not saying they're not out there. I've just never seen one.

Cost of a firearm results from the machine work involved in manufacture, not in the size of the gun. 22 cal. target pistols run $1000 or more.

45 ACP -- as big as they come without getting "crazy" (50 AE). Larger calibers are intended for hunting, not defense.

 

[BlindJustice]

Besides what others have said of it's balance of bullet weight/bore size
& manageable recoil, it comes in platforms lighter in weight and more compact
than the typical platforms for those higher energy cartridges the O.P. listed.
THe .45 ACP is also available most sporting goods stores stocking ammo.

IT's also sub-sonic for HD

R- R

 

[lee n. field]

I have read guys saying they would take it over the 41 magnum, 44 special, 44 magnum, 45 long colt, 45 GAP, and 10mm cartridges.

OK, I'll bite.

The .41 is rare. It, the 44 special and magnum and .45 colt are rimmed wheelgun cartridges. .45GAP is a weird little bastard that exists to get Glock's name on a cartridge. 10mm is a handful.

I have seen .45 ACP revolvers, that seem like you have to do more to load them with the moon clips, or the cyclinder has half moon clips,

Moon clips -- that's just the way it is with rimless cartridges in revolvers.

the Revolver costs more than the other equivalent Revolvers.

Do they?

I have seen Rifles chambered for the .45 ACP, and on the shelf right next to it same manufacturer is a 30-06, for the same price.

Not many rifles made for .45ACP, and it costs as much to make them as it would for that .30-06.

I have seen Pistols chambered in it that cost more than say the .45 GAP, or 10mm, even the 44 Magnum.

High dollar gun gamer guns. Price out a Ruger auto, or a Glock or XD. For that matter, a Taurus or Springfield 1911 can be had for tolerable money.

I have seen guys that like to talk power of guns and rank the .45 ACP up there, even with say a 50AE or 50GI or a 460 or 500 magnum.

Now it may just be the area I live in, but what gives? Is the cartridge really that much better than the other cartridges near its size?

It's not raw power, otherwise we'd all be looking at the 45-70 revolver.

 

[Indifferent]

more thanks

 

[JImbothefiveth]

IT's also sub-sonic for HD

Less hearing loss, and probably less muzzle flash. That means there is less chance of firing the gun having a "flashbang" effect on you, leaving you unable to fight, or at least less able to fight.
Not good when your life is on the line.

 

[Zangetsu]

...and probably less muzzle flash.

Google some pictures of .45s being shot at night...there's a flame coming out of the barrel at least 3 feet long It has to do with the powder not being completely consumed when the bullet leaves the barrel. Still, not sure exactly how other calibers fair in that respect; it probably depends more on the maker behind the bullet than actual cartridge. I can recall several brands of ammo that when I shot, I could see a big white flame in front of my pistol, while others didn't produce this type of effect. Anyway, my point is that the best way to minimize this effect if you're that worried about it is get a threaded barrel and put a flash suppressor on the pistol.

 

[Kosh75287]

Frankly, it seems to me that it's faster and easier to load a .45 ACP revolver with a "full moon" clip than any other revolver caliber with a conventional speed loader. If I simply MUST carry a revolver, for some silly uniform armament regulation or another equally autistic reason, I'd probably lean toward the .45 ACP revolver with this in mind. Other revolver calibers are more powerful or can be made to be so. So can the .45ACP. By the time the other rounds are loaded hot enough to demonstrate a meaningful ballistic advantage, controllability becomes enough of an issue to render their ballistic advantage a moot issue.

 

[OregonJohnny]

A few years ago, when trading in my first and only handgun (a Ruger P95 9mm) for a newer, more powerful CCW piece, I began researching the 1911. I stumbled across a web sight called sightm1911.com and read the "Myth & Legend" page. All the war stories featuring the 1911 and the .45ACP cartridge had a big effect on me and I had to have a 1911.

Now, after shooting a lot of different calibers out of a lot of different handguns, I will agree with others who say the .45ACP cartidge offers minimal recoil, decent magazine capacity in a slender design (with the 1911 platform), and a big, heavy bullet traveling under the speed of sound. All these factors are pretty attractive when considering a HD handgun.

 

[Smaug]

I would take it over any of those cartridges too, but only against humans.

Moon clips do take longer to load than speed loaders, but the whole theory is that you have them already loaded, just like you would a magazine for an auto pistol. That being the case, moon clips are the fastest way to load a revolver; faster than the speed loaders.

One note about the 45 ACP rifles - They give higher velicity than the pistols, because the pressure has a chance to fully build behind the bullet.

While the 45 ACP doesn't stack up against those big, heavy hunting calibers you mention, it probably won't matter much against a human target. If it punches right through the human, all that excess energy is wasted.

It is just a matter of something that was pretty much ideal in the early 20th centry, so it is hard to improve upon it. The 45 GAP is the closest, but it can only achieve 45 ACP power by going to much higher pressure.

As for those one-shot stop statistics, there are many things that can color them. For instance, the most popular platform for launching 45 ACP is the 1911. The folks that carried 1911s are probably better trained than the typical beat cop with a 38 Special. The trigger pull is lighter and more consistent. Ditto for the 357 Magnum. Everyday cops carried 38s. Cops that were more concerned and were willing to train more had 357s. So maybe they just placed their shots better?

44 Specials have not really been used recently; the only ammo available when they were in more wide use was the old lead round nose.

I'm not saying it's all bogus, just that you have to consider lots of factors when you're looking at stats.

 

[BlindJustice]

I shoot a 1911 on a regular basis, but I also have:

S&W has been making N-frame revolvers in .45 ACP since
1917, with only an interuption during WWII, to present. Today,
S&W offers 6 different .45 ACP chambered N-frame revolvers -
they must have something going for them.

I have a S&W 625 5" bbl. Guy Hogue full profile checkered w/finger
grooves Rosewood grips with the S&W Perf. Center Master Revolver
Action Job. I'll load up 12 or more full moon clips prior to a range session
with an assortment of .45 ACP, as well as having 4 HKS 25M speedloaders
with some Heavy bullet .45 Auto RIm It's a pleasure to shoot - when
friends come along with their Magnums they're usually done with sore wrists
and Ijust keep booming away.... Double Taps are a great exercise.

After the range session, I de-moon the full moon clips of the spent
cartridges having tossed them into a 1 gal.ziploc bag. Nice way to
collect once fired brass instead of looking around fot it.

Randall

 

[Archer1945]

The 45LC won't do anything the .45ACP won't do and probably better, I have both and shoot both well and know what I'm talking about. The advantage to the .45ACP is it was designed after the advent of smokeless powder and therefore is a shorter cartridge than the .45LC and because it was designed for a semi-auto pistol you can carry more rounds in a somewhat smaller gun. The 45GAP is the ballistic twin of the 45ACP but in approximately a 9mm length case. The disadvantage of the 45GAP is because it was designed to fit in a 9mm sized gun you get fewer rounds because the diameter of the cartridge is much larger than the 9mm.

The .44M and, for that matter, the .41M are really for hunters and much too powerful for personal protection. The 44M will also chamber .44SP which is much more manageable for most people though modern factory loads for it are rather anemic due to fear of people blowing up a very old blackpowder era 44SP.

If the 41M had been designed the way it was originally requested it would have actually be a 41 Special because Bill Jordan, and others, wanted a revolver for police work which had more punch than the .38 Special without the recoil and muzzle blast of the .357 Magnum. S&W and Remington decided they really wanted something less than than the .44M so came up with the .41M. Btw, for reloaders there are .41 Special loads which make the .41 a very versatile gun. One reason S&W/Remington might not have given us the .41 Special is there is an older gun of that caliber though it is a different size bullet and nothing like the one Jordan and Company wanted.

Probably the major reason the 45ACP became so popular is because it was the first gun that shot a large diameter bullet at a speed high enough to really do some damage and was the first really high capacity handgun capable of all thes. It was not the first 45 caliber bullet but it was the first that was fast enough, over 750fps, to be fairly reliable in stopping power yet in a gun small enough to be easy to carry and held more than six rounds. The British 455 Webley predates the .45ACP by a good many years but it was a very slow moving bullet, somewhere in the 500fps range. The S&W 45 Colts, while the equal to the .45ACP in power and velocity were very expensive guns, held fewer rounds and were slower to reload; same is true for the Colt SAA and it was even slower to reload.

 

[lee n. field]

he British 455 Webley .. a very slow moving bullet, somewhere in the 500fps range.

"Stately" is the word I've seen used.

 

[mljdeckard]

A lot of what I will say is probably right above already.

I've been to Anaheim a few times. I never knew any gun guys from there. A .45 ACP is not anywhere near the stopping power of those heavy x-frame calibers. They are a completely different class of power. From the .44 mag on up, these are not personal defense cartridges. They are hunting cartridges. (No matter what Clint Eastwood says.) If they WORKED as personal defense cartridges, everyone would use them for that. Personal defense handguns are an unfortunate compromise. They have to be low-powered enough for normal people to be able to carry, shoot, and control, which means that they really aren't sufficient to stop a bad guy on the first shot.

Why should a rifle chambered in .45 cost any less than an -06? They have the same parts, weight of material used, and processes to manufacture. Having said that, I can't think of any rifle chambered BOTH in 30-06 AND .45 ACP.

I'm pretty sure, a Glock chambered in .45 ACP is priced within $10 of a similar model in .45 gap.

The .45s I know of that cost a lot more than other 'normal' pistols are custom-shop 1911s. There are those who will pay a premium for a hand-built, polished, micro-perfect 1911 that does the exact same thing as a $650 1911. I'm not one of them, but if the demand exists, someone will make it and sell it.

Moon clips are by FAR the best way to reload a revolver. If you don't believe me, go to youtube and search Jerry Miculek. Yes, those videos are for real. A revolver chambered for the cartridge YOU WANT, set up the way YOU WANT, is worth a little more.