410 Itch

[mokin]

Some of the recent discussion about .410s has given me an itch I went out and scratched today. I've been curious about slugs in .410s for a while. I managed to accumulate some slug components before things got crazy. I finally got around to loading some up and seeing how they perform.

The slugs I tested were the Ballistic Product's Thug Slug (top, isn't it cute?), and the LGS or, Light Game Slug, (bottom). The LGS is a single pellet of 0000 buckshot on top of a unique carrier/wad.

I used both fold crimps and roll crimps. The fold crimps may have been a little faster, but within the sample I took, I don't think it was significant.

I used data provided by BP in their slug manual. The Thug Slugs were loaded on top of 10 grains of 800 X. Average velocity of five shots was 1465.5 fps. I didn't realize I had mixed up the crimps until after I had finished shooting over the chronograph but, as the standard deviation was only 23.14 fps, I don't think it made a difference. Published data recorded 1450 fps.

The LGS were loaded on top of 14.0 grains of HS-6. Velocity for those with a fold crimp was 1920, and with roll crimps was 1907. Not much difference. Published data lists 1860 fps.

Here's the accuracy. I set up a silhouette target at 50 yards. First I shot the Thug Slugs with fold crimps ( I separated them after I put the Chrony away).



Not bad except for that keyhole...

Next, I shot the LGS with the roll crimps.




Only two of the slugs hit the paper, and only one hit the target. I was using the .410 bore half of my Rossi "Matched Pair."

Next, were the LGS fold crimps.



Similar results...

Lastly, I shot the Thug Slugs with roll crimps. I still had a keyhole...

But it was in the X ring.

I had fun. I think it would be fun to see what I could do if I had a shotgun with more than a front bead. As it is, I'm not disappointed by the performance of the Thug Slugs. We're talking about a 124 grain projectile moving in excess of 1400 fps at the muzzle. I imagine the ballistic coefficient is pretty poor but I reckon it still packs plenty punch at 50 yards.

Maybe sometime I can get around to checking some factory loads.

 

[mcb]

Try some Brenneke slug is you get a chance. Very good 410 slug.

 

[12Bravo20]

Interesting result. What size choke are you using in the 410 barrel?

I know with buckshot, different sizes will not pattern the same depending on the choke size. When I first started loading my own 3" buckshot loads, I tested both 00 buck and 000 buck with my Mossberg 500 and a Turkish made O/U. I used the 24" full choke barrel and 18.5" cylinder bore barrel on the 500. The O/U is full/modified chokes. My 3" shells have 5 pellets in them. What I found was that the 00 buckshot loads did good in the full choke, decent in the modified choke, and the pattern really opened up with the cylinder bore barrel. The 14.5" barrel on my Shockwave and the 18.5" barrel on the 500 (both cylinder bore) did a lot better with the 000 buckshot.

I haven't reloaded any slugs yet and factory 410 slugs are too expensive. I should test them out with both barrels on the 500.

 

[Leon tP]

Using your data and some info from the BP website, I ran some numbers at JBM.
The BP website says these are 125 grain slug so I'll go with that (They also say 8 gram ~ 124 grain) but I'll go with 125 grain as listed on their site.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/Brochure-Thug-Slugs/productinfo/00BTHUG/

It also says .408 diameter so I used that. Not listed is the BC so used a mathematical BC and called it good (0.0894). This might seem pretty low but compare that to the 0.064 BC of the 1/5 oz. (87.5 grain) Remington Slugger in .410 -- makes sense, lighter slug, similar shape, lower BC.
https://www.remington.com/shotshell/29-20618.html

Anyway, ran a few numbers at JBM and got back 1200 fps (400 fpe) at 50 yards. Not bad at all! My biggest concern is accuracy and that keyholing (tumbling?). I wonder if that's a choke issue.

That 0000 buck load was less impressive with the accuracy it showed, at least at 50 yards. Might be more useful up close. Btw, what diameter is that 0000 buck? I imagine around .39 maybe?
Anyway, interesting post, thanks for sharing your findings with us. Good info.

 

[mcb]

Most factory 410 slugs managed nearly 700 ft-lbs or more. The Brenneke 410 slugs from some guns managed 1000 ft-lbs.

 

[12Bravo20]

That 0000 buck load was less impressive with the accuracy it showed, at least at 50 yards. Might be more useful up close. Btw, what diameter is that 0000 buck? I imagine around .39 maybe?
Anyway, interesting post, thanks for sharing your findings with us. Good info.

According to Ballistic Products, their 0000 buckshot is 0.380" in diameter.

 

[Leon tP]

Thanks Bravo, I only looked up the "Thug" info when I was at the website.

 

[12Bravo20]

I had to dig around Ballistic Product's website to find the specs for their 0000 buckshot since they seem to be the only one to make buckshot in that size.

 

[Leon tP]

I had to dig around Ballistic Product's website to find the specs for their 0000 buckshot since they seem to be the only one to make buckshot in that size.

I went back to the BP website looking for the weight of those 0000 buck pellets but didn't find it. With a little more web searching I did find this info though.

.410 3″ Ultra Buck 0000 Buckshot Ammunition
...
These 3” rounds carry 4 balls that are .375” diameter and weigh 78 grains each. 5 Round Pack, 3″ Round.

https://gumgully.com/product/410-3-ultra-buck-0000-buckshot-ammunition/

I just find this interesting in a .410 since I haven't really seen buckshot this big outside of a muzzle loader.

Those Thug loads did manage to generate 595 fpe at the muzzle and a 183 power factor so that's still impressive. Compared to the Remington Slugger .410 loads launching a 1/5 oz (87.5 grain) slug at 1830 fps generating ~650 fpe and a power factor of 160. Those Thug loads are standing their ground.
Anyway, this all just shows the little .410 has options.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

A pop top break action 410 is a great boys shotgun, and ideal for the little ladies of the family.

 

[12Bravo20]

A pop top break action 410 is a great boys shotgun, and ideal for the little ladies of the family.

Or anyone with disabilities that can't handle the recoil of bigger shotguns too.

I went back to the BP website looking for the weight of those 0000 buck pellets but didn't find it. With a little more web searching I did find this info though.

Here is the info on the Ballistic Products 0000 buckshot. They don't give the weight of each pellet. According to the chart 5.2 0000 pellets equal 1 ounce.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-0000-8-lb_jar-380/productinfo/SBK40/

 

[ThomasT]

I load a 3 ball .410 load with three .395 round balls I cast from a Lee mold. They are a slip fit in the hull with a half a stump wad over the powder, a pad of paper towel over the wad and then three rounds balls with a roll crimp to finish. I use 14grs of 2400 powder. That should give the standard .410 speed of around 1150fps. Those balls weigh 93grs each. To me this is like shooting three lower powered 9mm slugs all at the same time. A .380 shoots a 95gr bullet at around 960fps so a good load for close range deer at 30 yards or less. At 20 yards all 3 balls will hit the 4" side of a 2x4 board. But I haven't tried them past 25 yards.

 

[12Bravo20]

Here are a few photos of how 5 pellets of 000 buckshot does out of my Shockwave.

5 shots at 7 yards

5 shots at 15 yards

3 shots at 25 yards.

 

[Leon tP]

...
Here is the info on the Ballistic Products 0000 buckshot. They don't give the weight of each pellet. According to the chart 5.2 0000 pellets equal 1 ounce.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-0000-8-lb_jar-380/productinfo/SBK40/

View attachment 1008883

Thanks again Bravo.
You know I went to that same page and that table just comes up black. Here's a screenshot.

No idea why that page does that. I'm guessing it doesn't like my phone.

Anyway, thanks for the info. Doing the conversion of 5.2 pellets per ounce comes to 84.135 grains per pellet or about ~ 84 grains. So they're actually heavier than that other websites 0000 buck, there's are .375 diameter and 78 grains. I'm learning stuff every day.

 

[JDTomba]

A pop top break action 410 is a great boys shotgun, and ideal for the little ladies of the family.

I use a Henry .410 for low house skeet. Now doing it with the .380 slugs. (got 250 for free) makes for some interesting clay shooting. If you can hit a clay with a slug you should be able to hit a bird on the wing. Anyway it definitely makes it more challenging. Never found the load info for the brass shells so am using my AA shells.

 

[mokin]

@12Bravo20 That shotgun has a modified choke. I'm sure that I would get very different results with different chokes. Unfortunately, that choke is not changeable.

@ThomasT Ballistic Product's also has data for a buckshot load using two pellets of 0000 buck similar to the load you describe. When I saw the accuracy of the slug load I had to wonder what a buck load, closer in, would do.

A pop top break action 410 is a great boys shotgun, and ideal for the little ladies of the family.

I bought that gun mostly with the .22 half in mind for my daughter. She soon acquired a taste for Belgian Browning goodness and doesn't shoot the Rossi much anymore. I discovered that a single shot .410 is just right for rabbits around here. Twelve gauges are too destructive in the heavy brush and close distances I shoot most critters.

I've really taken a liking to the .410. The lever actions by Henry have received good reviews and are starting to call pretty loud.

 

[ThomasT]

@ThomasT Ballistic Product's also has data for a buckshot load using two pellets of 0000 buck similar to the load you describe. When I saw the accuracy of the slug load I had to wonder what a buck load, closer in, would do.

That doesn't sound like much of a buckshot load to me. I think I will stick with what I have. I am making these with shortened shell casing in the 2.5" range. If I could find safe load data I would try a 4 or even 5 ball load. But a 5 ball load may be too much weight. The three ball load hits hard and keeps a close patern. I have a Mossberg bolt action with the chokes that screw on the outside of the barrel. I have a full and modified tubes for the gun. Take the choke off and you have a cylinder bore barrel and thats the best of all. But these shoot good in the full choked H&Rs I also have. At least good enough for my uses and intended range.

"I discovered that a single shot .410 is just right for rabbits around here. Twelve gauges are too destructive in the heavy brush and close distances I shoot most critters".

Thats also what I like about the .410. I am not a good enough shot to hunt doves with one of them but for sitting game they are hard to beat. I have shot rabbits before with a 12 and all you end up with is a fur covered bunch or blood shot meat. And how many times have you plucked a Dove you shot with a 12ga and only found 2-3 hits on the bird? That means the other 497 pellets of that #8 load were completely wasted and didn't do a thing. If you can hit one the same 2-3 pellets will kill the bird.

But for non flying game a 410 is a good choice as long as the game size is matched to the gun being used. And in that respect the 410 does have its limits.

 

[mokin]

Two 0000 isn't really much of a buckshot load. But as a slug load it's probably better than a single 0000 pellet. Your load sounds better than them both.

I got to shoot a bolt action Mossberg .410 once. Lots of fun and a very pretty gun.