45-70 IMR3031 405 Laser Cast??

[BigBore44]

Hey guys,
I have read what seems like a million forums about the 45-70 reloads. Problem is whenever someone asks a specific question about a specific Gun/Powder/Bullet first thing that seems to happen is people start talking about a different G/P/B that they use which doesn't help the OP with his question. So I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and see what I can come up with and I know someone is purposefully gonna start talking about their favorite plinking load for their 22-250 Ackley but hey, if you can't have a little fun what's the point right? I just hope I get a couple good answers and maybe a couple laughs.

Ok I have:
Marlin 1895 (not G, or GS)
A few pounds of IMR3031 (can be used in my SA M1-A also)
New Winchester 45-70 brass (cannot be used in my M1-A)
250 Laser Cast 405 gr non-GC FP's (made some custom 390 gr HP's on a buddy's lathe out of these also....wicked looking. Based on Laser Cast brinell hardness they will probably just shatter but we'll see )
CCI LP's (not sure of the number on them)

I am not wealthy and am starting to reload with my father for the quality father/son time. Although we both work for the FLW Tour together. But that's work, not relaxation.

Laser Cast provides data for their bullets but it's at "Trapdoor" levels. And I don't substitute jacketed bullet loads for hard cast. I know someone will tell me not to rely on information received on the net, but as I've stated Laser Cast load data isn't really helpful. So what I'm wanting is a range/hunting load for the components I have. I am not looking for 2000 fps and I know every gun is different and has its own likes. I'm just wanting a good medium load so as not to waste more powder/bullets than necessary. And i can adjust accordingly. FYI I am totally new to this. I just read A LOT. I also don't have anyone around where I live that reloads to learn from. My father used to reload 41 mag but that was 30 years ago and things have changed. He got out of it about the time I was born and sold his S&W 57. Last year i bought him a nickel S&W 29-2 8 3/8 44 Mag. Should have seen his eyes. Worth every greenback. But back to my delima. I'm looking for 100-130 yard max accuracy for the range load. The hunting load will pretty much take care of itself (it is a 45-70 after all). Any help with this is truely appreciated.

I sure hope I posted this in the right place. Lol

 

[Dr. A]

Shooting plain based bullets will limit your effective accuracy with this bullet to under 1600fps, and most likely under 1500fps. The trapdoor loads are more appropriate here because the hotter loads will make a plain based bullet inaccurate. 45-70's 405gr. Lead bullet do not need speed to kill. Start with a load and work up. Did you have a velocity in mind? I would guess work at 37gr. And up. Your sweet spot won't be too high cause of the plain base. Other powders would be more efficient and slow the bullet down with accuracy. Pistol powders and very fast rifle powders do well here. Your powder choice is good for higher pressure loads. It is position sensitive and will not do its best accuracy with that bullet. Hodgdon has good online data for this bullet.

 

[BigBore44]

Dr.A
Thanks for the reply. I was unaware anyone had published relaoding data for Laser Cast. I realize 1500-1600 was going to be where I wanted to be. But some people are claiming almost 2000 fps with this combo and no leading. The world of lighter/faster can, but shouldn't apply to the 45-70. It was designed around a 500 gr cast. And i learned took one of the longest shots ever recorded outside of Sandy Hook. Almost 2 miles i believe. I know heavy/medium will get far better penetration. Which is what I'm after. 37gr was I believe max or a little over according to Laser Cast.

 

[Stormin.40]

I don't have experience with 3031 but have loaded laser cast 405gr bullets for a friends guide gun. We targeted 1500fps and had no issues with leading. Laser Cast bullets are very hard and can be pushed faster than standard lead, I believe they are beveled based bullets not plain base.

Not the information you were looking for but you should be safe using upper end trapdoor data and can work up from there as leading not pressure will be your limiting factor.

 

[Dr. A]

Laser cast has quite a bit of pistol powder data on the net giving 1100fps or so. Look up greg Mushial Oregon trail data. This is the speed alot of us"plink" with. My hunting load, not that you wanted it, is 25gr of 2400 giving the starline brass load just under 1500fps. With your brass, somewhere down in the 1300's. 40gr of reloader 7 or 36gr of H4198 and 27gr of 5744 are all good spots for this bullet. Trail boss and unique are favorites as well.

I've killed several large hogs down in Oklahoma with this easy shooting accurate and balanced load. If you want to use 3031, get some gas checked bullets or jacketed bullets.

 

[BigBore44]

Hey guys,
It's not that I don't want the data. Any information about what works "best" for you guys is gladly accepted. 3031 is jut what I have to work with right now. But if 2400, or h4198, trailboss or something works better I may have to invest in a few more pounds of powder. I just really want a load with what I have now. Money is tight.

Yes Stormin, the Laser Casts are beveled bases. What powder did you load your buddies guide gun? I know it will differ with my barrel than with his though.

And Dr.A, Hogs are exactly what's on the menu for this gun....if I don't take them with my Matthews. (Oh no, did I just mention archery equipment?)

 

[Stormin.40]

I used H4198, I don't have the load data with me but I think it was in between Hodgdon's Trapdoor and lever action load data, closer to trapdoor data though. They have 3031 data on their website, you should be able to work up a good load with what you have.

I ended up with 500 of the bullets and don't yet have a use for them, they are too hard for my trapdoor rifle so I figured I could play with my neighbor's guide gun. Nice rifles and a 405gr bullet going 1500fps doesn't beat up the shooter too bad.

 

[Dr. A]

1400 to 1500 also allows for a quicker follow up shot.!

I like plinking with the Oregon trail, but i have always hunted with a wheel weight hard (12brinnel) hardness fn i make out of Lyman 457643

 

[joecil]

According to Laser Casts Reloading manual IMR 3031 with a Marlin and 405 gr bullets by them would be min 34.0 gr @ 1200 fps to max of 38.5 gr @ 1375 fps. The OAL is 2.530 on these.

I've used these in my Rossi Rio Grande with the 405 gr from Oregon Trail non gas checked bullets. They shot fine for me but then a different rifle so don't know for sure.

 

[BigBore44]

I think 1500-1600 is plenty fast for what I will be doing. I need a chrono don't I? Any recommendations?

 

[BigBore44]

Hey Joe,
What kind of charge were you running in your Rio?

Dr. A,
I looked that guy up but couldn't find any actual charts. But for the $80 from RCBS if he covers 44 Mag, 308, '06, 8 Mauser, and 45-70, I'll probably be putting in an order. That's a wealth of knowledge and quick reference for 80 bones. Just don't know if he covers all those.

 

[grubbylabs]

I liked the 3031 when I used it, I did not do a lot of load development with it, but the minimum load with a 350 grain bullet was as accurate as I can be with open sights.

IMR 4198 has been my go to powder, but I am beginning to experiment with H335, It seems to have less felt recoil.

 

[joecil]

by BigBore44.

Hey Joe,
What kind of charge were you running in your Rio?

I using at 37 gr so about 1.5 gr shy of the max for a Marlin 1895. It would be their max for the Springfield reproductions. I really didn't see the need to push it much higher as they are accurate from my gun. I'm also a fan of IMR 4198 as the last poster said with the same bullet. Now I also have loaded a few with RL-7 but those are gas checked 500 gr bullets.

 

[cpileri]

Here's some from loaddata that might help. Sorry if its hard to read. C-

.45-70 High Power Loads Reloading Data Printable Version
Warning! Notes: Marlin Model 1895 .45-70 22-inch barrel, 8 lands, 1-20 twist. 186-gr. R-P cases, Federal 210 primers. Oehler No. 20 chronograph, Oehler No. 50 electronic screens. Velocity taken at 15 feet from muzzle and converted to muzzle velocity. Average temperature 75 degrees. These loads were all below maximum for the rifle tested, but should be approached from below in any other rifle. They should not be attempted in Springfield 1873 or other old rifles. (Handloader Issue #39)
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
405 Remington IMR IMR-3031 53.0 1,860

.45-70 Government - Marlin 1895 Lever Actions (Oregon Trail Rifle Data) Reloading Data
Warning! Notes: test gun: Marlin 1895 24", WLR; OAL: 2.530; never reduce stated overall lengths; these loads are safe for Marlin 1895 lever action and other modern rifles; do not use in any "trapdoor" 1873 Springfield; do not exceed maximum loads
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
405 Flat Point IMR IMR-3031 34.0 1,200
Remarks: starting load
405 Flat Point IMR IMR-3031 38.5 1,375
Remarks: maximum load

.45-70 Government - Reproduction Springfield 1873 Rifles (Oregon Trail Rifle Data) Reloading Data Printable Version
Warning! Notes: test gun: Ruger No. 3, 21", WLR; OAL: 2.530; never reduce stated overall lengths; these loads are safe for reproduction 1873 Springfield rifles and other 45-70's in good condition; do not exceed maximum loads
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
405 Flat Point IMR IMR-3031 34.0 1,175
Remarks: starting load
405 Flat Point IMR IMR-3031 37.0 1,330
Remarks: maximum load

.45-70 Handloads That Do Not Exceed 35,000 CUP Reloading Data Printable Version
Warning! Notes: A Marlin Model 1895 rifle with a 22-inch barrel used to test fire all loads. Starline cases and Winchester Large Rifle primers used throughout. Maximum case length: 2.105 inches; trim-to length: 2.095 inches; maximum cartridge length: 2.550 inches. Temperature during testing was 60 degrees Fahrenheit. (Handloader Issue #248 - August, 2007)
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
405 Remington softpoint IMR IMR-3031 48.0 1,551
Remarks: overall loaded length (inches): 2.525
405 Remington softpoint IMR IMR-3031 51.0 1,670
Remarks: overall loaded length (inches): 2.525
405 Remington softpoint IMR IMR-3031 54.0 1,830
Remarks: overall loaded length (inches): 2.525

.45-70 Government for 1873 Springfield (Lyman Reloading Handbook 48th Edition) Reloading Data Printable Version
Warning! Notes: cases: Remington; trim-to length: 2.095"; primers: Remington 9 1/2; primer size: Large Rifle; Lyman shell holder: No. 17; cast bullets used (sized to .458" dia.); firearm used: Universal Receiver; barrel length: 24" & 30" (bullet #457132 and #457658 fired in a 30" barrel); twist: 1-18"; groove dia.: .457"
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
405 Lyman cast bullet #457193 IMR IMR-3031 34.0 1161
Remarks: start load; 11,100 cup
405 Lyman cast bullet #457193 IMR IMR-3031 38.5 1352
Remarks: max load; 16,000 cup

 

[BigBore44]

Joe, grubby and cp,
Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to start around 35-36 gr and work up. As I said accuracy is my number one goal. I don't think anything I will ever encounter can stand up to 405gr at 1500-1600 fps. Even the 400+ lb true wild boars we have encountered around here. Do you guys think I need a chronograph? I will be loading for several other cartridges. Ok let's change that question. I think "do I need" is really up to me. And I think I do need. So any suggestions on brand or model #? Midway has them on sale.

I can see I'm probably going to have to bite several bullets and pick up some different powders. Luckily I can find almost any powder local and fairly cheap.