45-70 Sierra 300g FNHP help

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Franco

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I'm getting ready to load bunch of these for my modern 1895 lever action. The I will be using H4198 which I really like in the 45-70.
Sierra data in the Loadbook peaks that powder at a little over 54g but the Hodgdon data (both in the Loadbook and at Hodgdon.com) lists a low end of 55g for that bullet and powder and a max load of 60g. Obviously, I would prefer to be near the top fps. Any suggestions? Is Sierra typically overly conservative? Any help would be appreciated.

Just to save some time, please don't suggest different powders or bullets. I appreciate everyone's opinion but I want to use H4198 and I have a box of Sierras that look pretty nice....
 
load

Sir my Hodgdons manual (about 5 yrs old) gives a load for the sie 300gr.
using H4198 55gr starting and 60gr max. 1895 lever marlin action only.
24" bbl , win brass, CCI 200 primer. trim 2.100. COL 2.525. Hope this helps.

The 300 Sierra is awsome on whitetails,Dead in puddle with a good hit. Also the 400 speer jfp is truely awsome. good luck.
 
Yes, that's exactly my problem. The Hodgdon data (from the Loadbook or Hodgdon site) indicates between 55 and 60 gr but the Sierra data says that 54.3 is the max! One of them must not be correct or Sierra is just very conservative. That's what I'm trying to find out.
 
The top Sierra load is likely at the SAAMI maximum of 28,000 CUP suitable for antiques.

Loads with a "1895 lever marlin action only" warning are going to top out near 40,000 CUP which the modern guns can handle.
 
Thanks. That makes sense. Unfortunately, the Sierra data specifically says "1895 lever action marlins" but doesn't refer to antiques or modern rifles. The Sierra load I've seen is not in a Sierra load book but in the "Loadbook" series for 45-70 and it doesn't list the SAAMI with each load. Maybe I'll get the Sierra book and check -- I suspect you're correct. Thanks again.
 
The Hodgdon magazine format book shows
300 gr Sierra + 55 gr H4198 = 2221 fps @ 27,600 CUP MAXIMUM
under the Trapdoor Rifles section.
Some say that is too stout for a period trapdoor which should be kept down to 18,000 - 21,000 CUP, but it is certainly fine for a modern gun. Which is why Sierra probably includes the caveat; they are known to be quite conservative in load data.

My Hodgdon shows:
300 gr Sierra + 60 gr H4198 = 2424 fps @ 40,000 CUP MAXIMUM
under the 1895 Marlin Lever Action heading.
 
Yes, I've confirmed the same. My 1895 is a new one but it's a Cowboy model (26" octogonal barrel). I'm assuming that it would be considered a "modern" 1895 lever action even though it's their CB model? I can't imagine they're making the new CB models with a weaker action than their other 1895 levers. I'll check their owners manuals for each of their levers but I suspect they are all going to say "use only ammo at SAAMI" just to be on the safe side.
 
I just checked the owners manuals and each of the 1895 levers says:

•WARNING: Marlin firearms are designed and manufactured to
handle standard factory-loaded ammunition which conforms to
SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’
Institute Inc.) standards with dependability and safety. Due
to the many bullet and load options available, the element
of judgement involved, the skill required, and the fact that serious
injuries have resulted from dangerous handloads, Marlin
does not make any recommendations with regard to handloaded
ammunition.


So, I guess that means I'm probably safe to assume that a new CB model 1895 will handle up to 40,000 CUP max.

Thanks again for your help.
 
I suspect you are right.

And yes, all 1895 Marlins are created equal.
Just because it is a Cowboy model does not make it any weaker then any other 1895 model.

The .444 Marlin has a SAAMI spec pressure of 44,000 CUP, albet with a slightly smaller case and rim then the 45-70.

The bigger case head of the 45-70 translates to more bolt thrust.
The bigger 45-70 case dia. translates to less steel in the barrel shank & threads.

rc
 
A question may be, why is it obvious you want the highest velocity with a 300 gn jhp? Personally would go for a balance of the best accuracy/bullet performance.
 
I went in with the same idea as Zeke when I worked up the 300g HP's in my 1895G. The bullet testing I'd seen for the Hornady, Remington and Sierra 300g suggested they fail when impacting around 2000 fps. I wound up with the following as my most accurate load in my rifle.

Code:
COL	PWD	PMR	    Case	CL	GR	MV
2.525	H4198   FED 210m     W-W        2.095    51     1914

I do a lot of brush hunting where the range is close, but at that velocity it's an easy ~200 yard load as well. Looks like the OP is using a 22" barreled version as well, so expect some velocity pick up from my 18.5" numbers.
 
Thanks Asherdan, good advice. I was not going for max velocity, that is listed as 2400fps in the Hodgdon data (with 60 gr of H4198). I just got done loading a box of shells (20) with 58gr of H4198 and sierra 300g FNHP -- Hodgdon data suggests a mv of approx 2200fps with that load so I'll let you know what I find. At 100yds, the impact velocity should be around 2000fps or less.

I would think your load (above) is worth trying too, as I am trying to reach a balance between accuracy and velocity and I also do a lot of brush hunting. I was not aware of any testing that suggested failure over 2000fps. Fyi, I'm shooting an 1895 cowboy with a 26" barrel so I should show an even faster mv!
 
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Great sites, very helpful. Thanks much. Taking my chronograph to the range on Thursday and will get some mv data on several loads. I will also be recording accuracy. I'll share the data afterwards. Thanks again.
 
Ok, here's the follow-up on my 300 gr Sierra 45-70 load. I decided to hit the range today instead of Thursday to test this rather high power load.

Load
300 gr Sierra HP on 58gr H4198 with CCI 200 primer.

Data
Avg MV (5' from muzzle) of 2350 fps shooting 3" group at 50 yards. However, the group arranged almost 4" higher at 50 yds than where the gun was sighted in using Hornady 325 gr FTX with 47.5gr of H4198 (upper end load per Hornady load notes). That's a heck of a difference!

Gun
Marlin 1895 Cowboy, 26" barrel w/ open sights.

My shoulder
Hurts (but it's a good hurt)

Result
I think I'm going to drop back to 55 gr of H4198 so that (a) the MV is reduced to less than 2200 (so likely less than 2000 at impact) thus avoiding the > 2000fps impact failure mentioned by Asherdan; and (b) to bring it closer to the trajectory of the 325 gr FTX at 47.5g of H4198. I'll test the latter of course.

Hope this helps others.
 
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Sierra uses three different levels of pressure in their #5 which is the latest of their manuals.
In a Springfield Trapdoor
a 300 gr bullet with 31.1-36.0 gr of IMR4198

In the 1886 Winchester
a 300 gr bullet with 36.3-41.0 gr of IMR4198

and the Marlin 1895 Lever

a 300 gr bullet over
EITHER
45.5gr to 51.0 gr of IMR4198
OR

48.9gr to 54.3gr of H4198
These 2 are not the same powders and should not be treated as such.

The trouble with the "load books" is that they are nothing but compilations of obsolete data from as many sources as would allow them to use it. Some times the data is still valid, sometimes it isn`t. other times the pressures values allowed by SAAMI have changed or loads such as the "+P" or loads for the modern "stronger steel" rifles has appeared. The new manuals reflect this the old compilations or manuals don`t.

Stay with modern data if at all possible and especially if the newest loads are lower then the old. Powders, Bullets, and primers have changed. You don`t know if the data is still valid or not without a proper lab to test it.
 
Thanks much. The data I was relying most on was from Hodgdon's online reloading database. I assumed that to be relatively current. However, I don't have Sierra's book and that probably is a better basis for loading Sierra bullets.

The Sierra bullet section of the Loadbook that I have lists exactly what you have above for the 1895, with a high end of 54.3 gr of H4198. That's what started all of my wondering about this load because Hodgdon's data was so much higher (topping at 60gr).

Although I completely agree that we should use the most current data, it's also clear that 54.3gr of H4198 under a 300gr Sierra HP will produce CUP less than 28,000 which is the SAAMI for 45-70 and stated in much literature as a trapdoor rifle limitation. Today's levers are clearly constructed to exceed that CUP, so I'm not worried about going to 55gr of H4198, especially after shooting reasonably tight groups yesterday with 58gr. Having said all of that, I'm going to get a recent Sierra manual as I do tend to shoot a lot of Sierra bullets.

Thanks again for your input.
 
From personal handloading notes, using Marlin 1895 guide gun. Win brass, Fed 210 primer, H-4198 and Sierra 300 jhps.

50.0 grains for 1950 fps and excellent accuracy
52.0 grains for 2010 fps and good potential accuracy
54.0 grains for 2125 fps and very poor accuracy

It has been reported by others that Starline cases use less powder than Win cases for same velocitys.

Am guessing most older cup and core jhp's were designed around factory velocitys of about 1800 fps (Marlin 18 in tube). More modern designs of lighter bullets can withstand higher velocitys (Nosler partition, Barnes x, Speer )

Hodgen manuals list significantly higher charges of H-4198 for the 45-70 1895 lever action than any other manual that i am aware of. Would be extrmely careful working towards their upper load levels.

The very first thing i did after first reloading trials with Guide gun 45-70 was purchase a better recoil pad. Second was to decide not to try for upper end of Hodgen's listed 1895 45-70 loads.
 
Funny, Zeke and I were using the same components and had the same results. This is the first test group I shot with the load I posted up there.

100y45_70HDY300071124.gif

One to adjust scope and four pinched off trying to time the winds. 100 yards in 20 - 40 mph gusting Santa Ana winds. It holds under 1.5" when the weather and I have a calm day.

As far as brass differences...

As measured by Brian Pierce!!!

.45-70 Remington Brass/76.2 grains of water(1.3 grains less than Starline Brass)
.45-70 Starline Brass/77.5 grains of water(2.8 grains less than Winchester Brass)
.45-70 Winchester Brass/80.3 grains of water.(4.1 grains "More" than Remington Brass.)

The reason I put that up is to point out that if you're going to load with the upper end of the Hodgdon data in this cartridge in a Marlin lever action it becomes even more important to make sure you follow the brass/primer type/case length/OAL/bullet type/etc. requirements of the data. When you're pushing 40k CUP in these actions (which is safe and doable) you just don't have much margin to futz around with.

Last comment: that rifle should do a whole lot better than 3" @ 50 yards. I think it's time you run a ladder of charges to hone in on your best accuracy.

Good Luck!
 
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