.454 Short - Has anybody tried it?

[Varminterror]

Google Brian Pearce Ruger loads, John Taffin as well.

You’re grossly overthinking this, ignoring thousands and thousands of other reloaders who have done this before you for many years, and underestimating the capabilities of these revolvers.

 

[Obturation]

I can offer my best advice simply, buy a super redhawk toklat. Have it cut for clips, youre done. No need for anything out of the normal, dick casull did all the testing. Get standard 454 brass and use it, if you want something in a shorter case use 45 colt brass. I cant imagine that not covering every use one could have for a 45 revolver, if you dont mind the weight. Ive got a toklat, its awesome and it needed no trip to a smith. Personally i would skip the moon clip cut, 45 acp wont do much for you. Its just better to use 45 colt brass, lower pressure, no clips to fiddle with, the 45 acp offers no advantage in a revolver over 45 colt that i can think of.like another guy said, dont over think this.

 

[Someguy.429421]

I don't really care about .45acp that much, if I had clips I would use them for everything that ran through the gun probably. Thank you for the responses.

 

[Someguy.429421]

So I've been looking into it more and it seems that several people have had my same idea and tried it, and written about it. Some of them are even published. Turns out the slightly smaller case volume adds a little bit of pressure, and the small rifle primer adds a little bit of pressure, and what you get are increases in accuracy and velocity as compared to 45 colt cases with the exact same load. This wasn't mentioned specifically but most people take this trimmed loads and use them for hunting mainly, so I suspect the recoil may be heavier.

 

[Varminterror]

Recoil is heavier when you push more powder into the case to get the same (or more) speed.

You’re pushing a 300grn+ bullet over 1300fps - recoil is going to be heavy. Period.

 

[Someguy.429421]

I will concede that adding pressure and recoil in this way does nothing towards my real, paradoxical goal of "softer shooting, harder hitting," but the exercise is still fun.

So I guess the real question is which cartridge can do that the best, hot .45 colt or medium/fuzzy .454 loads.

And I still haven't found anything satisfactory on that 205gr defender, least of which on the lehigh website.

 

[Varminterror]

Why bother with such an underweight bullet?

 

[Varminterror]

my real, paradoxical goal of "softer shooting, harder hitting," but the exercise is still fun.

Bigger bullet, and skip the velocity. The hot 45’s and 454’s are nasty in recoil, whereas rounds like the 480 and 475 are much better behaved on the shooter end, but pack more penetration momentum on the business end.

Again, many of us have walked this road, you’ve missed the exciting part of the party, it’s all pretty well defined by now.

 

[reddog81]

So I guess the real question is which cartridge can do that the best, hot .45 colt or medium/fuzzy .454 loads.

They're the same thing... Anyone who thinks they're gaining accuracy by cutting down a .454 case by .1" is only fooling themselves.

 

[Varminterror]

Anyone who thinks they're gaining accuracy by cutting down a .454 case by .1" is only fooling themselves.

Agreed - real world results have proven the opposite. Excessive throat jump is never a means to improve accuracy. A lot of guys can’t shoot handguns well, especially high recoil handguns, so they convince themselves the smaller group with 45colt out of their 454 revolver means it’s inherently more accurate. More accurate in their inexperienced, or undertrained hands doesn’t mean anything about actual internal or external ballistics. They’re just flinching less with the lighter recoiling round.

 

[Obturation]

A larger case volume with the same charge will result in lower pressure. Load a heavier bullet at a lower velocity to decrease recoil impulse sharpness. I can share my 454/45 colt load data with you if you would like. I keep it easy, only use 3 loads. A 360 grain lfn gc at about 1450 fps , a 300 grain xtp mag at about 1500 fps and a 250 grain rnfp plain base (45colt) at about 900 fps. Any of these will do anything you might need. The 360 grain load is the best in my opinion

 

[Someguy.429421]

Why bother with such an underweight bullet?

This bullet design functions under different parameters than the mass driven projectiles generally used. They do not rely on expansion or deformation, and they penetrate all sorts of barriers while generally not deviating from the original flight path. The flutes direct the energy of the bullet through fluid mass in a spiral pattern, and penetrates the whole time. There are heavier versions dubbed the "extreme penetrator" that have more of a meplat and have less of the fluted effect but still leave a wider PWC than any hollowpoint design. They work better the faster they are going, so I was hoping to get 1800ish fps or better from the 205gr solid copper bullet. Its longer than it would if made of lead, so load compression may be a part of the equation. I am not sure at what velocity they become unstable but the 45-70 loading with a 225gr similar bullet is published by underwood as having a 2400fps velocity.

 

[Varminterror]

@Someguy.429421 - I’ve shot hundreds of the Lehigh Defense bullets, including many into game. What you’re desiring isn’t anything new. It’s an underweight bullet for the potential of the round you are shooting.

Copper solids do take up more case capacity than a leadcore of the same weight, if loaded to the same length, and they also generate far greater pressure from greater resistance in the bore.

What do you aim to accomplish by pushing 1800fps? Or are you coming up with arbitrary velocity targets?

You can’t overstabilize that bullet by spinning it too fast. That’s not how physics works.

This entire thread feels like a case of knowing enough to be dangerous, and failing to realize what you don’t know.

 

[Obturation]

This bullet design functions under different parameters than the mass driven projectiles generally used. They do not rely on expansion or deformation, and they penetrate all sorts of barriers while generally not deviating from the original flight path. The flutes direct the energy of the bullet through fluid mass in a spiral pattern, and penetrates the whole time. There are heavier versions dubbed the "extreme penetrator" that have more of a meplat and have less of the fluted effect but still leave a wider PWC than any hollowpoint design. They work better the faster they are going, so I was hoping to get 1800ish fps or better from the 205gr solid copper bullet. Its longer than it would if made of lead, so load compression may be a part of the equation. I am not sure at what velocity they become unstable but the 45-70 loading with a 225gr similar bullet is published by underwood as having a 2400fps velocity. View attachment 827235

Maybe in a different caliber, the 45 calibers dont rely on velocity, dont need velocity. Exploit its strengths, large diameter and heavy weight. You cant beat a hardcast with a large meplat in 45 caliber. Lehigh bullets arent a gimmick, theyre awesome. Just not in a 45 revolver. A 360 grain lfngc bullet will dominate the lehigh bullet in every way, except maybe fluid displacement - but maybe not even that.

Edit: for less recoil try sending that 360 grain (or whatever heavy weight you choose )at 900-1000 fps, it'll punch a hole through just about anything short of hardend steel. Im sure it would go lengthwise through a deer even at that lower velocity.

 

[Riomouse911]

I’ll agree with the masses. The SRH .454 will do everything you want it to: stomp Buffalo with Casull loads all the way down to plink cans with the .45 Colt.

I have loaded magnum level .45 Colt rounds for my old Vaquero, and they’re just as miserable to shoot all afternoon as full bore .44 Mags are in a similar gun. I see no reason for you to re-re-reinvent the wheel.

Now, if you’re hell-bent on spending money to alter a Ruger Redhawk and get something really different, look into a .50 Special. This is one custom-caliber conversion that I would love to own.
Y
http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/catalog/ruger_double_action_big_bore_caliber_conversions.html


Stay safe!

 

[Someguy.429421]

I’ll agree with the masses. The SRH .454 will do everything you want it to: stomp Buffalo with Casull loads all the way down to plink cans with the .45 Colt.

I have loaded magnum level .45 Colt rounds for my old Vaquero, and they’re just as miserable to shoot all afternoon as full bore .44 Mags are in a similar gun. I see no reason for you to re-re-reinvent the wheel.

Now, if you’re hell-bent on spending money to alter a Ruger Redhawk and get something really different, look into a .50 Special. This is one custom-caliber conversion that I would love to own.
Y
http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/catalog/ruger_double_action_big_bore_caliber_conversions.html


Stay safe!

Oh buddy, I've wanted a .50 special for a few years now. You are right about that.

 

[Jim Watson]

John Linebaugh has a lot to say about overloaded .45 Colt, too.
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

 

[Someguy.429421]

Maybe in a different caliber, the 45 calibers dont rely on velocity, dont need velocity. Exploit its strengths, large diameter and heavy weight. You cant beat a hardcast with a large meplat in 45 caliber. Lehigh bullets arent a gimmick, theyre awesome. Just not in a 45 revolver. A 360 grain lfngc bullet will dominate the lehigh bullet in every way, except maybe fluid displacement - but maybe not even that.

Edit: for less recoil try sending that 360 grain (or whatever heavy weight you choose )at 900-1000 fps, it'll punch a hole through just about anything short of hardend steel. Im sure it would go lengthwise through a deer even at that lower velocity.

If you have the means of testing both bullets at velocities appropriate to their function, in meat targets and/or gel [because it looks cool] and filming it, I would be very interested in the results.

I designed a bullet a while back [haven't actually made it yet] that was like a solid copper keith swc crossed with an extreme penetrator. The main differences were that the flutes were narrower and instead of the gradual diagonal angle going off the edge of the bullet, the flutes terminates at the sharp 90° shoulder, where there is a tiny inlet flute to focus/direct the energy rather than have it just go any which way. The idea was to send a sharper jet of energy directly outwards, functioning like the blade of a broadhead. Also the meplat was a little bit larger and was faceted for increased surface area for a more dramatic impact with the target. I wanted it in .357, .429 and .454, and I think that the higher velocity the round has, the longer each "blade" will be, and the larger the PWC, the more likely that all vitals in the area will be destroyed.

 

[murf]

I'd be happy with 1200-1300fps if the pressures were still on or lower. I think the small rifle primers of the .454 case will help to achieve this.

I get 1275 fps from my 325 gn lbt load shot out of my 4.625" Blackhawk. kicks like a freight train!

murf

 

[Varminterror]

The main differences were that the flutes were narrower and instead of the gradual diagonal angle going off the edge of the bullet, the flutes terminates at the sharp 90° shoulder

I think you need to understand a lot more about fluid dynamics and terminal ballistics before you waste more time designing and building this bullet. The bullet you're describing is going to anything but direct "energy" outward - if a person actually directs "energy" anywhere with a bullet design.

 

[Someguy.429421]

I think you need to understand a lot more about fluid dynamics and terminal ballistics before you waste more time designing and building this bullet. The bullet you're describing is going to anything but direct "energy" outward - if a person actually directs "energy" anywhere with a bullet design.

Have you watched the videos about how these things work? I may have misused terms but the observable effects are what I am referring to, and the paths of the observable effects are most definitely caused by the bullet design. My design utilizes the same principles in a slightly altered path.

 

[Varminterror]

Are you familiar with what eddy currents do to energy? Are you familiar with how abrupt angles cause eddies and boundary layer separations?

Equally, I'd ask: Are you familiar with killing game with handguns?

 

[Obturation]

I think that the higher velocity the round has, the longer each "blade" will be, and the larger the PWC, the more likely that all vitals in the area will be destroyed.

Not really the case, the higher velocity is likely to result in less pentration but higher transfer of energy. This would be much more useful in a cartridge designed for higher velocity. Yes, you will get a larger PWC from the lehigh design than with a fmj round nose type bullet. But it isnt going to be dramatically different than a traditional hollow point, the advantage being no hollow cavity to plug/little chance of failure to transfer energy. If you want high velocity large PWC type results use a rifle with hollow point projectiles. Were kind of heading down a rabbit hole here. I doubt the result of an extreme defender would be much different than an xtp mag in this chambering (xtp will cost half).
What truely is the end goal, hunting or defense? Ill stand by what i said, heavy and a large meplat will do a ton of damage, have bettet penetration, crush bone and drive 3' through flesh, bone and muscle. Light weight with low bc at high velocity wont do that. The hardcast will run a lower pressure, cost less, weigh more and have all the power you could ask for in a handgun. Like the 45-70, weight is your friend, not velocity.

 

[Varminterror]

Bullets aren't broadheads, even pistol bullets.

Wide meplats have proven to produce huge temporary cavities, while still delivering deep penetration. We want pistol bullets to crush their way through, not cut a tiny, self closing 45 caliber wound.

The Lehigh tip is designed to increase temporary cavity, but without expansion and bullet weight loss, and to guide the bullet in the wound channel without tumbling. In my experience using these vs. other copper solids like the Punch, it's largely a gimmick. Game goes down if you put a big, heavy bullet through something important. The Lehigh Xtreme tip is an attempt to make a pistol pretend to be a rifle - missing a LOT of velocity... Not missing the few hundred feet per second you're looking at, we're talking missing a THOUSAND feet per second it needs to act like a rifle bullet... A wide meplat Punch, Swift A-frame, etc are big killers in handguns, for good reason...

 

[Someguy.429421]

I don't have anything against a wide meplat and a heavy bullet. I am aware of how it works. It is a very tried and true design. I know its cheaper. They are not new to me. I am a big fan.

The lehigh bullets are not a gimmick, and they penetrate 3A plate armor at 1400fps when a wide meplat won't. When the same bullet is loaded in reverse, with the flat base acting as the face of the projectile, it does not penetrate the armor. It digs in, but does not go through. That is because it is a function of design in this case, not purely of velocity and weight, otherwise any shape tip would penetrate, especially the other face of the exact same bullet.

To answer your question about what function mine or the lehigh bullet would serve in .45 caliber or greater, at speeds near 2000fps, the answer is simply to be as destructive to tissue as possible with one shot. If you watch many videos in gel or otherwise you will see that these bullets cut surrounding tissue in a way no others are able to replicate, and that the results are based largely on impact velocity times the width of the flutes. The main deference between the extreme models are flute width, and meplat, which are contingent on each other. The wider the flutes, the wider the force is spread to cut tissue. This gives 18in of penetration around 1400fps and slows the bullet once it is inside fluid based tissue, and it releases its energy on the spot in a concentrated area as drag with the defender. The penetrator has narrower flutes and as such holds more energy for penetration and cuts a little bit less, while having a more blunt face for impact trauma. The PWC of the penetrator is still larger than comparable hollowpoints, but not as large as the defender, but more stable with less pronounced taper towards the exit.
The effect of the wider flutes create more drag than than the meplat. My idea of directing that effect at closer to a 90° angle in a narrower channel is to increase the drag considerably the moment the bullet enters tissue, while also maximizing the hammer effect possible with the faceted face. I want a spinning, bidirectional wound cavity at least 6" across at the point of entry.

A nice hard cast keith or LBT is like a hammer, whereas the lehigh is something more like a drill.
The hammer has an awesome destructive force upon impact, and then cuts along the edges on its way out the back of the target. The drill has less of the rippling, brute impact force of the hammer and it does not rely on mass. In fluid based targets, however, the drill shape utiziles forces to cut beyond its edges. The scope of that is variable to flute shape and path as well as velocity.