458 Socom saga continues

[jeeptim]

So as some of you may remember was having trouble sizing 458 Socom cases. Some cases at the widest part of the case near the head would fit in the die but seemed to spring back larger.
Had a Set of lee dies altered the shell holder so the shell would go just a hair deeper no help.
Got a Lyman multi cal ammo checker was able to pick out the fat cases that would not resize sent those cases to starline very good people he said looks like bad die set and sent me 50 new cases free. Got a fancy Lyman die set with single ammo checker. Loaded up and shot the new cases sized them all.
This is the weird part all cases fit in the single ammo checker that came with the die set kind loose but some about half won't fit in the multi cal ammo checker and some won't chamber in the rifle.
The ones that don't fit in the multi cal ammo checker going to try and resize.
I really love shooting this guy and I love reloading but this is no fun.
New brass all good.
If you got any clues I can work on please let me know..

 

[alfsauve]

Maybe some pictures would help.

 

[jmorris]

What is the firearm and who chambered the barrel?

What is a multi cal ammo checker?

Your single ammo checker is a case gauge? Made by whom?

The new brass that’s all good, how do they fit in your checkers?

Was it bad brass that starline sent you or your dies that messed them up?

Did you try the new cases they sent you before running them through your dies?

 

[Casefull]

My lee dies would not properly resize my 458 Brass also from Starline. This was quite a few years ago. I bought another set of dies, not sure which brand but that solved the problem. I reload for about 20 different calibers and that's the only time Lee dies did not work for me.

 

[LoonWulf]

What is the firearm and who chambered the barrel?

What is a multi cal ammo checker?

Your single ammo checker is a case gauge? Made by whom?

The new brass that’s all good, how do they fit in your checkers?

Was it bad brass that starline sent you or your dies that messed them up?

Did you try the new cases they sent you before running them through your dies?

Pretty sure this is the .458 socom he got from me. Its a Radical, and while I never had issues with chambering once I got my dies adjusted, it seemed like it wanted to shells to be sized to minimum.

One thing to maybe check, and I can't remember if you mentioned that you did in your other thread, is your case length. I know I had to trim cases pretty offten, or run the seater high, or they would crimp and squish in the seater. Gun didn't seem to care about length too much unless they did squish.

 

[jeeptim]

Loonwulf how you doing?
Love this thing.
It is the radical. It is chambered in 458 Socom. Multi cal ammo checker is a Lyman product that checks 8 different calibers. The die set is lyman.
All the brass was trimmed last go around checked all after sizing.
It's just weird that the ammo checkers not case gauges both from the same manufacturer are different sizes.
Sizing in a rock chucker have the cam over really tight second go around resizing each one again 3 or 4 times giving them a half turn or so each time.
Did this to 10 cases 4 out of the 10 fit in the ammo checker. So going to do this to all and toss the offending cases.

 

[LoonWulf]

Loonwulf how you doing?
Love this thing.
It is the radical. It is chambered in 458 Socom. Multi cal ammo checker is a Lyman product that checks 8 different calibers. The die set is lyman.
All the brass was trimmed last go around checked all after sizing.
It's just weird that the ammo checkers not case gauges both from the same manufacturer are different sizes.
Sizing in a rock chucker have the cam over really tight second go around resizing each one again 3 or 4 times giving them a half turn or so each time.
Did this to 10 cases 4 out of the 10 fit in the ammo checker. So going to do this to all and toss the offending cases.

Doing good Tim, glad your still enjoying the socom!

Only other thing I can think of is that I had to take all the light out of the gap between the sizer and the die with a case in it to get everything to run with no issues. Otherwise just like your issues, some cases wouldn't work tho they were rare.
I was running on a Lee, so no cam over, and I set it to where I could lean on it pretty good to force the stiffer cases in.
I just assumed it was a tight chamber, but now I wonder if it's a combination of cases, chamber, and dies.

 

[rdnktrkr]

Could there be a problem with the chamber? Maybe try polishing the chamber.

 

[Blue68f100]

So as some of you may remember was having trouble sizing 458 Socom cases. Some cases at the widest part of the case near the head would fit in the die but seemed to spring back larger.
Had a Set of lee dies altered the shell holder so the shell would go just a hair deeper no help.
Got a Lyman multi cal ammo checker was able to pick out the fat cases that would not resize sent those cases to starline very good people he said looks like bad die set and sent me 50 new cases free. Got a fancy Lyman die set with single ammo checker. Loaded up and shot the new cases sized them all.
This is the weird part all cases fit in the single ammo checker that came with the die set kind loose but some about half won't fit in the multi cal ammo checker and some won't chamber in the rifle.
The ones that don't fit in the multi cal ammo checker going to try and resize.
I really love shooting this guy and I love reloading but this is no fun.
New brass all good.
If you got any clues I can work on please let me know..

Does a sized only brass fit the chamber?

Socom's can buckle the shoulder very easy if your trying to crimp with a std die.

If you would like send me a few that don't fit and I will try them in my Redding die. Like I said in the earlier post, when I got into the SOCOM there was a problems with many dies not working as well as out of spec chambers. I still believe it's a die issue. I've only used Imperial Sizing wax, which is a thin film. Some sizing lubes are thicker like the Lanalon lubes. May try that to get a little more reduction.

Instead of over cranking the sizing doe down, put a shim between the base of the brass and shell holder. This will force the brass that much more into the die. I normally use card stock, cut to fit. It will give you about 0.003"/ layer. Most shell holders give you about 0.015-0.020" slop to play with.

 

[Casefull]

What brand of dies are you using?

 

[jeeptim]

The brand of dies are Lyman their spiffy pricy set.
The cases that won't properly chamber are sized not primed no bullet.
I have ground down a shell holder with a shim.
It really really looks to be a brass issue.
The case fits in the sizing die as it should and you would think it stays that size but I can't see it happen but feels and all I can come up with is the brass is so thick at the base just above the head it some how springs back just a lil a few thousands. Starline kindly kinda said dunno here's some new brass. Pix really show nothing but the calipers show the difference.
You know life is really good right now so going to toss the bad cases and buy new. Kinda tired of chasing this.

 

[Blue68f100]

Your die is more than likely out of spec. The main issue with the SOCOM is that everyone put there twist on what it should be. All I use is Starline brass for my SOCOM, brass and nickle. The 200+ I have has been fired and sized several times. Never a problem with my Redding dies. I have the Sheridan case gauge which shows were you contacting at. The head space on my gun is setting at 0.0015", right in the middle of the spec.

My offer still stands if you want me to size some for you.

I don't know how Lyman makes there dies but look at the stamping and confirm that the sizing die is doing the sizing. Redding uses the same thread for sizing and bullet seating and the parts can be swapped. Mine was missed assembled at the factory. Would not size properly till I put the correct parts in the right die.

 

[jeeptim]

Blue so I am on my second set of dies I have about 300 cases in the process of being loaded need to pick up mag primers.
Lemme get a count on cases that don't fit in the Lyman ammo checker you can have them. Want to make sure it's worth shipping thinking about 2d5.
Last go around I sent a bad batch to starline and they replaced them.
I have about another 200 loaded once I get to shooting them and dig out the bad ones you can have as well.
I have invested a ton of time and money in this but the biggest problem is shooting they don't fully chamber and get stuck. It's a fight to get them out. Now that just pass in fat cases I am really enjoying the gun.
Shoot me your address and next week I'll shoot you the offenders.
Thanx

 

[Blue68f100]

I received some brass from Jeeptim, in the mornings mail. What I found was not good.

This is what he has been saying about the brass not fitting the case gauge. Set 0.235" high. All that he sent me. These were sized by him.



Area of contact.


All this brass shows MAJOR OVER PRESSURE SIGNS, multiple times. I'm seeing 2-3 ejector imprints on the brass.
Ni brass resist these better than just plan brass, due to the hardness of the Ni.



These ejector marks are 0.002"-0.003" above the base on the ones I measured. You can feel them with your finger nail.

I ran a couple through my Redding sizer. Made them go in the case gauge further but will not fully size.


All of the brass is expanded at the base in a major way. The Spec calls for the base to measure 0.541", all of his measure from 0.547" - 0.550", which is 0.006" to 0.009" over size.

Recommendations:

1. Scrap all of this brass, it's not usable.
2. Since your mainly shooting lead, you need to confirm that the bullet is not into the lands. This is bases on the profile of the ogive of the bullets you sent alone with the brass.
3. Back off your load. How far, start at min and work back up, once your have confirmed your not into the lands. If you see ANY PRESSURE SIGNS, (markings on the base) STOP. Reduce your load by 1 grain. Go up in 0.5 grain steps during load workup.

I do not like being Harsh but in this case it's warrantied.

If I recall we asked for the load and photos several times and none were provide. We are here to help, and to keep everything safe for everyone. The 458 SOCOM is low pressure round 35000 psi. Just a guess your in the 50,000+ psi pressure range buy looking at the brass.

It's disturbing that you kept shooting the same load when you knew you had problems.

 

[Blue68f100]

The primer pockets have been uniformed by jeeptim. I checked/measured all the primer pockets diameter (using pin gauges) all measured 0.210", except 2 (0.209"). These are max spec, some fit easily but would not accept a 0.211".

 

[Blue68f100]

Think I may have found the root of his problem. Jeeptim sent me some of his cast bullets for my trouble. He sent 350gr powder coated and plain, 400gr powder coated and plain. The powder coated was sized to 0.457"-0.4575", uncoated 0.458"-0.459" (unsized). I started dropping them into my Sherdian Gauge and noticed there was a noticeable variation. I was getting 0.050"+ variation in position. So some of the bullets are being jammed into the lands while some are not. This kind of explains while he's having intermittent problems.

I decided to see if I could make a push through sizing die to reduce the base back to near normal size. My first attempt failed for the Redding Boss II could not generate enough force to push them through. It could do a 0.002" reduction but not 0.006-0.009". So I made a new bushing for use in my 12 ton Hydraulic press. The taper is cut
1 deg starting at 0.458" with the last 1/4" at the target 0.451" (actually 0.450" to allow for spring back). This worked just fine, but took a lot of force to push them though. Even with the surface polished to 1500 grit, well lubed with syn grease.


These drop into the Sherdian gauge with a plunk. Good to go, but stretched the brass 0.005"-0.007" in the process. The bottom piece is just some scrap I had laying around to support the anvil which was shaped to the internals at the base, rounded to contact the bottom.

 

[NWPilgrim]

Are those fairly blunt nose bullets to be jamming the lands when oversized, or are they seated out to max length or more?

That must be a pretty strong case to be able to take that much over pressure without failure above the case head web. Good detective work.

 

[Blue68f100]

They are the typical RN-FP cast bullet. I use the 300gr MBC Buffalo HyTec without any problem. The coating was not very uniform on these home grown. As far as OAL, I don't know what he was using. You always expect some variation in all bullets, 0.005-0.010". I know for mine I'm never at max magazine length (2.260") with the SOCOM, but I always check with the gauge. I've learned for my gun at least if it does not fit the gauge it will not fit my chamber. 0.001" over and the bolt will not close.

This is one of the advantages of have the Cartridge gauge vs datum gauge. This one is made with the same reamer as my barrel. At least I have a pretty good reference to work with.

Jeeptim has elected to use the FTX for now.