6.5/284 in a short action, exactly why not?

[Bigfoot]

All the searching (tons, mostly on Benchrest.com and others) that I've done suggest that the 6.5/284 cartridge when used for long range target shooting is too long for a short action. In fact the short action shooters that I've read about have to remove thier bolts in order to extract a loaded round.

It can't be volume. The 6.5/284 has plenty of case capacity to get the 140s to 2950-3000 even when loaded to an OAL of say 2.9". When loaded to that length with the 140gr A-MAX it still has more net case capacity than the 6.5x55 has filled to the mouth/maximum capacity according to my software.

It can't be the long ogives. I know the 139/147 class bullets specific lengths and they are all in the neighborhood of 1.35" long, assuming that the shank and boattail are half the length (which many appear to be) it seems to me that the 2.17" long case with .7" bullet exposure would fit in my short action Savage magazine easily. I've been told by some shooters on this forum that the Scenars can be seated with the shank deeper than the neck/shoulder junction. I'd be using factory Norma brass so donuts arn't an issue.

As long as I provide my barrel maker with examples of loaded cartridges and he gives me a proper leade to the lands, can't I use my current gun for a 6.5/284?

Why do target shooters seat the bullet bases in the neck making the 6.5/284 to long for a S/A?

Why exactly do the target forums suggest using a long action for the 6.5/284?

 

[dakotasin]

284 is a winchester cartridge. winchester short actions are more like mediums - longer than remingtons short action. for commercial, off the rack bench guns, remingtons dominate.

 

[rust collector]

I would guess that folks don't want to be hobbled by LOA limits. They would like the freedom to experiment with different seating depths and bullets, and want an action that does not restrict them. They've decided that this option is worth more than the benefit of a short action.

I am sure that shorter, stiffer actions are a good thing generally for accuracy, but this concept may not be the last word in precision shooting. Seating a bullet out to touch the lands is usually desirable, and there are probably some terrific bullets out there that are a hitch long for some short actions when seated out.

 

[USSR]

All the searching (tons, mostly on Benchrest.com and others) that I've done suggest that the 6.5/284 cartridge when used for long range target shooting is too long for a short action. In fact the short action shooters that I've read about have to remove thier bolts in order to extract a loaded round.

It can't be volume. The 6.5/284 has plenty of case capacity to get the 140s to 2950-3000 even when loaded to an OAL of say 2.9". When loaded to that length with the 140gr A-MAX it still has more net case capacity than the 6.5x55 has filled to the mouth/maximum capacity according to my software.

It can't be the long ogives. I know the 139/147 class bullets specific lengths and they are all in the neighborhood of 1.35" long, assuming that the shank and boattail are half the length (which many appear to be) it seems to me that the 2.17" long case with .7" bullet exposure would fit in my short action Savage magazine easily. I've been told by some shooters on this forum that the Scenars can be seated with the shank deeper than the neck/shoulder junction. I'd be using factory Norma brass so donuts arn't an issue.

As long as I provide my barrel maker with examples of loaded cartridges and he gives me a proper leade to the lands, can't I use my current gun for a 6.5/284?

Why do target shooters seat the bullet bases in the neck making the 6.5/284 to long for a S/A?

Why exactly do the target forums suggest using a long action for the 6.5/284?

Bigfoot,

It's the high BC bullets that are being used - they are really long. I don't know of any 6.5-.284 shooters that have the base of the bullet in the neck. In almost all cases, the boattail extends down into the shoulder area, and even then, the COAL is too long for a short action. The original .284 Winchester was loaded with relatively light flatbased bullets, but if you were to load that cartridge properly with a 175SMK, you would run into the same situation - too long for a short action. If you intend to use the rifle for F Class, you will be single loading anyways, so chamber it in your short action. The only drawback is if you want to remove a live round from your chamber, you will need to remove your bolt.

Don

 

[Gewehr98]

It's the High-BC bullets.

They're simply too long, and intrude into the shoulder area of the case, compromising case capacity.

It's not a bad problem unless you're trying to feed from a box magazine, otherwise one just has to remove the Remington 700 short-action bolt to extract unfired rounds.

 

[pacecars]

If you were going to use a long action would it not make more sense to use the 6.5-06 and the cheaper component brass?

 

[Gewehr98]

Pacecars, you may be on to something there...

But don't tell anybody, ok?

I realized the same thing, but there's this infatuation with the Remington short action, something about it being a "stiffer" action and all. Personally, I find nothing could be further from the truth, and have been running a long-action 6.5-06 for many years now as my 1000 yard precision rifle. I give nothing up to the 6.5x284 in performance, but I do use RWS 7x64 Brenneke brass.

 

[Bigfoot]

I just found out that the Sierra loading manual calls for a COL of 2.910" for the 142 MK. This happens to be just about the length I was going for. The new centerfeed Savage mags will handle 2.965" BTW so I'd still have some extra room in the magazine to chase the lands a bit.

Gewehr98, the bullet intrusion will drop my net case capacity to 57gr but that should still be plenty to reach 2950-3000 with mild pressures. Just curious here, did you ever get a chance to try out those 6.5mm Wildcat bullets in your L/A? They are interesting but those long suckers would be way out of the question for my shorter application.

Don, when I said they seat the base in the neck I meant that the shank/BT juction is just above the shoulder/neck junction. This gives them a net case capacity of about 60 gr. The extra velocity is better for bucking the wind but at the cost of shorter barrel life.

Rust collector, yes this would be what the Brits call a closely run thing. It'll be important to mock up several bullets and decide on the best OALs and leade first.

Thanks all and please keep it coming. I haven't decided yes or no yet but it's looking more doable the more I read. I'd sure like to hear from someone who uses a 2.91 or so OAL.

 

[Gewehr98]

It goes back to that "closely run thing".

I've even seen compressed loads in the 6.5x284, and that's with the bullet seated out into the lands.

I run the 123gr Lapua Scenars on top of 59.0gr of H4831SC in my 6.5-06 with the aforementioned RWS brass, and use a 4-inch drop tube to keep powder compression minimized.

I still have those super 6.5mm Lost River bullets, but the last few hurricanes here have guaranteed that I don't have a range anymore that reaches past 200 yards. 200 yards doesn't mean much to me with respect to boattail bullet load development, so I'm holding on to them until I retire in about 60 days. Then I'll take the whole schmear home to Wisconsin and play with the data from a new perspective in Lodi.

 

[Bigfoot]

Ok, here's what I've learned about the bullets. So far it seems like all the boatail bullets and the factory flabased bullets are without pressure rings and can be seated deep. The 6.5/284 loaded with only the boatail below the neck junction reaches the right velocity range with the 140s at 85% load density, which gives it easy pressures with a variety of powders. It gives them the option of using the custom flat based bullets which do have the pressure rings and need to be seated in the neck. It also allows them to avoid the donut which happens after shooting with turned necks. All good things.

The bad, this makes the 6.5/284 slightly overbore and harder on barrels.

Now we all know that the 6.5x55 loaded hot will reach the same ideal velocities with 140s. The 6.5x55Imp, 6.5/257 Bob Imp, and others with around 60 gr (ideal capacity for the 6.5mm bore I've always read) capacity will reach it easily with less barrel wear. Right USSR?

The 6.5/284 with a 2.9" COAL has a net capacity that falls right in between the 6.5x55 IMP and the 6.5/284 both with COAL around 3.1"

Another plus with the shorter leade is that I can seat the 95 gr V-MAX up to the lands also.

The only reason I'm going through all this is because I've become a Savage whore lately and I'd like to keep the option of switching between target and hunting stocks, barrels etc. Being your own Savagesmith makes ya crazy like that.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have joined the Savage crowd and while I can amuse myself with the stock .308 for a while, I just know there is going to be a 6.5mm in my future; probably 6.5x284. It is the single shot short action so magazine length does not enter, as long as I can get it in, I will be good. Even if, as Don says, I will have to pull the bolt to get out a live round.

 

[Ol` Joe]

I haven`t seen any compressed loads with powders faster then R22 and bullets lighter then 142gr at longer OAL then 2.910" listed in any data I`ve found while hunting for loads for my 6.5x284. A M1999 with a short action-3.150" magazine.
The reason, I`ve been lead to believe, for the long COL and actions is because of the fact the sleek VDL bullets dear to the long range shooters hearts seat with the ogive below the case neck with short COL`s. The long ogive on these bullets is a problem when mated with the short case neck of this cartridge. To date all my loads with bullets of std geometery, (flat & BT) have been at or under 3.0" with the bullet a "touch" fit at the lands. This includes the Hornady SSTs` and wgts from 100 to 140 gr.

 

[Gewehr98]

An example of how long those 6.5mm bullets can get...




The four 6.5mm bullets on the left are all 120-123 grains in weight. However, depending on the ogive and boattail, you can see an obvious difference in bullet length. From the left, there's a Sierra MatchKing, a Nosler Ballistic Tip, a Lapua Scenar, and a Lost River J36. That's just in the 120gr range, which is what I run in my 6.5-06 at 3200fps out to 1000 yards.

If one goes to the 140gr range like most of the 6.5x284 crowd does, there's another variety of bullet lengths one must contend with. I don't have many 140gr bullets, but was lucky to have some of the Lost River J40 144gr bullets before I sent them off to a friend with a hot-rodded 6.5x55. That's the bullet on the far right, with a BC of .772. You can see how much fun a bullet like that would be while working with a short-necked .284 case.

 

[Bigfoot]

Jim, you might not have to remove the bolt to extract a loaded round. I talked to a S/A Savage shooter who used the 6.5/284 for 1000 yd. He told me his COAL was 2.9" but the site went down before I could confirm his bullet choices. I just found this load data, 142 SMK, COL 2.885, 28" barrel, 3020 fps. http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=119&BulletWeight=142&LoadID=7619 nice huh? This is exactly where my software says it should be. Here's the 142 SMK with the other 140s.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=31150&d=1131843175 Notice the shanks start about halfway down from the tip, just like the Scenar and most of the others. If the SMK can seat down to under 2.9" then I'm good with most of the others as well.

The 142 SMK is 1.38" long
The 139 Scenar 1.375"
The A-MAX is 1.366"
The new 130 Scirocco is 1.355"

It looks to me like the premise of the this thread was wrong. As long as you single load or have a magazine that allows 2.9" or longer length, a short action should work fine.

 

[USSR]

Bigfoot,

Most of the guys using the 6.5-.284 in competition use Remington actions. Remington's short action magazine precludes using a cartridge OAL greater than 2.820, I believe. If your Savage allows you to use 2.900, more power to you. No problem in regards to reduced case capacity by seating the bullets deeper, as THE powder being used in the 6.5-.284 for competition is H4350, and it just takes a little over 50.0gr of it to run at the desired 2950fps with 139gr-142gr bullets. With the 6.5x55, I can run at 2950fps with RL-22, but with slightly faster powders like H4350 and N160, I stop at 2925fps. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[NineHotel]

So, USSR, are you saying the Savage short action can be used with the 6.5/284, mag feed, at the normal lengths people load the 6.5/284 with the 140 and 142 gr bullets? Is the quoted dimension with clearance long enough?

 

[USSR]

So, USSR, are you saying the Savage short action can be used with the 6.5/284, mag feed, at the normal lengths people load the 6.5/284 with the 140 and 142 gr bullets? Is the quoted dimension with clearance long enough?

NineHotel,

I don't know what the "normal length" is among competitors using the 6.5-.284. I'm sure it varies, depending on just how far out the throat is in their particular rifle. What I'm saying is, if you can load the 6.5-.284 to 2.900 to fit your Savage, and the bullet ogive is above the neck, do not be worried about the reduced case capacity of the case due to seating the bullet deeper, assuming you are using 4350 burn rate powder.

Don

 

[Gewehr98]

I disagree.

THE powder being used in the 6.5-.284 for competition is H4350

I'm sorry, but when I read the latest 1000 yard benchrest competition score sheets from my subscription to Precision Shooting Magazine, I see an awful lot of 6.5x284 shooters scoring high with H4831. (and Reloder 22, for that matter) I actually had to dig around some to find a 6.5x284 listed that was using H4350.

That doesn't surprise me, in 1997 I found H4350 and IMR 4350 a bit too peaky with respect to pressures and temperatures in the 6.5mm bore, and moved a notch slower over to H4831SC myself.

 

[Bigfoot]

Most 1000 yd shooters load out to 3.1"-3.2".

My Savage mag only allows 2.85" or so. But the new style detachable centerfeed mags are just under 3.0" inside and can accept a 2.965" COL easily. These mags need to be modded in order to fit the in the older guns but they just need a couple of mounting tabs tacked on, easy mod. And being centerfeed mags they function well with the 6.5/284 and hard to feed brass like the 6mm-30BRs, WSMs and WSSMs.

The custom Wyatt magazine for the S/A Rem 700 is 3.0" inside so a Rem with a custom box should work as well.

 

[USSR]

Gewehr98,

The source of my info concerning the best powder to use for the 6.5-.284 comes from Chris (Fatboy on www.benchrest.com) in Tennessee. He goes thru several barrels per year in F Class competition, and has been shooting the 6.5-.284 for many years.

Don

 

[Bigfoot]

Very old thread, no further postings necessary.

I ran across this thread during a Google search and figured that I should correct the record. Back in 2005 the first reviews on the new Savage rifles were that the centerfeed mags were longer than the old style mag, this turned out to be false, the new mags inside measurement is around 2.8".

I didn't want someone to purchase a centerfeed Savage rifle thinking that they could load the bullets out further.

I apologise for posting bad information.


Bigfoot