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8mm mauser vs 308?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by standingbear, Jul 19, 2004.

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  1. standingbear

    standingbear Member

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    Im curious about the russian capture k98s floating around..how does the 8mm compare to a 308 winchester semiauto as far as ballistics?30-06?if anyone has a german k98,id like your opinion on the gun,its accuracy and sights.

    I have a fn-fal in 308 and am curious if the 8mm mauser is any better ballistically.Id like a good '06 mil surp rifle but they are outta my price range for now...still are all 3 calibers(308,8mm mauser and 30-06) pretty much the same or are there pros and cons?thanks.
     
  2. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    The 8X57 Mauser cartridge is loaded pretty softly in the US, but with European ammo or good handloads, it's right up there with the .308.
     
  3. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

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    I have a Turkish Mauser (8x75mm JS) and my FFL worked up a handload for it using 150 grain Hornady Spire Points. We chrono'd that load at 3006 fps. At that load we were not seeing signs of excessive pressure. The load he used was 52.0 grains of AA2520 and CCI 200 Large rifle primers, with Remington brass.

    Typical factory loads for the .308 drive a 150 grain bullet at a little over 2800 fps, and the '06 drives the same bullet at a little over 2900 fps.

    So, that handload will compete pretty favorably with both the .308 and .30-06. Where the 8x57 will usually really outperform the 30-06 is with the heaviest for caliber bullets. Typical barrel twist rates for 8mm Mausers is faster than the .308 or 30-06 which also helps to stabilize the really heavy bullets. Usually you only see 220 grain bullets in the .300 magnums, whereas the 8mm can handle bullets that heavy quite well.
     
  4. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    I would say that the standard WWII German service loads, 196 gr. bullet at 2600fps) , make the 7.62 NATO look fairly anemic, although I would not want to be shot with either one.

    Jim
     
  5. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

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    I thought the standard service load was a 154 grain spitzer at 2990 fps. At least that is what my Turkish surplus ammo is loaded to.

    I know there were some sevice loads that used the 196 grain bullets, but I thought they were at something closer to 2300-2400 fps, and that the Germans did not use that load in WWII. I think the Greek surplus ammo that is out there is 196 grain load, though I can't comment on how hot it is.
     
  6. Feanaro

    Feanaro Member

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    7.92x57 is comparable to 30-06(Indeed, 30-06 is often said to be based on 8mm Mauser), which is a bit hotter than .308 Winchester when all three are loaded to(or close to) military spec. 150 grain spitzer type bullet at or about 3000 FPS for the first two, the same at about 2700-2800 for the latter.(Correct me if I have that wrong) If you handload, 8mm Mauser or 30-06 is capable of being a good bit hotter than .308.
     
  7. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    8x57 vs .308/7.62NATO vs 30-06

    The 8x57 cartridge & 98 Mauser action go together like peas & carrots and stimulated many copy-cat designs.

    The 1903 Springfiled is a well-executed, but flawed copy of the 98 Mauser. Terrifically well-executed as to materials, quality, & such, but they jiggered with the system and made it somewhat less safe. I suspect they did so to avoid patent infringements. They were unseccessful, however, and had to pay Mauser restitution/royalties/whatever until the US entered WW1.

    The 30-06 cartridge was a follow-on to the 30-03 cartridge. The 30-06 cartridge emulated the 7x57 & 8x57 to a great extent (somewhat lighter spitzer bullet at greater velocity vs hte old roundnose pills).

    The 7.62 NATO was an attempt to emulate 30-06 performance in a form-factor more amenable to automatic/select-fire rifles such as the M14 and MGs such as M60.

    Relative Power:
    30-06 & 8x57 are about the same, with the edge in the heavier bullets going to the 8x57, lighter bullets in 30-06. The most commonly found heavy 30-06 bullet is 200gr, 8x57 is 220gr.

    That being said, the SAAMI pressures for 30-06 are significantly greater than those for the 8x57, so American-made 8x57 ammunition will be relatively less powerful than 30-06. (Generally, the reason for this is so as not to blow old 8mm mausers with the old bore measurement of .318. 8x57 rifles started to use the .323 bore starting with the 98 mauser) The European equivalent to SAAMI, CIP, has pressure levels for 30-06 and 8x57 roughly equivalent, so European 30-06 & 8x57 are similar, power-wise. For handloaders with strong weapons (98 action or newer) in good repair, there is no need to download 8x57.

    7.62 NATO is generally 100fps behind the 30-06 until the heavy bullets are used, where it drops further behind.

    Conclusion:
    These three cartridges are pretty darn similar power-wise. If you want to use heavier bullets go 30-06 or 8x57.

    I own rifles in all three calibers.
     
  8. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    I chronographed some romanian '77 8mm at 2,495 fps. unsure of bullet weight, just some milsurp. all the turkish surplus i've found has been loaded far hotter than the romanian, though i havent chronoed it yet.
     
  9. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

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    While testing some handloads for my 6.5mm Swede we also chrono'd 10 rounds of my Turk 8mm ammo (vintage 1949). Here's what we got. Chrono was 10' from the muzzel, altitude was 2500MSL, body temp.

    Chronograph Data
    Shot No. -- Velocity (fps)
    1 ----------- 2,992
    2 ----------- 3,003
    3 ----------- 2,999
    4 ----------- 3,036
    5 ----------- 3,002
    6 ----------- 2,980
    7 ----------- 2,963
    8 ----------- 2,968
    9 ----------- 3,017
    10 ----------- 2,983

    Statistical Results -
    22.2 feet per second - Sample Standard Deviation
    3,010.2 feet per second - Upper 95% Confidence Limit
    2,994.3 feet per second - Sample Mean
    2,978.4 feet per second - Lower 95% Confidence Limit

    This ammo showed significant cratering of the primers. This is either because it's a very high pressure load, or because the primers are a lot softer than modern primers. Either way, I'm not shooting that ammo anymore as it is very dirty, not to mention corrosive, both of which makes cleaning a PITA. I'm really wanting to get reloading equipment in the near term so that I can start loading a lot more ammo and actually go out and shoot the stupid rifle (I'm also about to order Mojo sights which will help a lot with making the gun fun to shoot).
     
  10. standingbear

    standingbear Member

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    thank you all...that has pretty much answered my question on ballistics.I wanted to know if the 8mm had advantages over a 308 or an 06.ballistically,the 8mm mauser seems perfect for the big critters thanks to your information.

    anyone own or shoot a german k98?do the sights start at the 100meter line or do they start at the 300 like the yugo m48s?accuracy?I'm pretty much sold on 8mm..now just finding the right one.
     
  11. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

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    Well, my Turk is basically a copy of the German 98 mauser. Accuracy is a little hard to nail down as the iron sights shoot about 2 feet high at 100 yards. Once I get Mojo's on the gun I should be able to fix that and see where I really am in terms of accuracy. The stock on my Turk really should be replaced as there a number of severe cracks, including one just under the reciever. I'm torn between just buying a mil-spec replacement, or making my own. A lot of that will depend on when I decide to actually replace the stock. If accuracy is within minute of mule deer out to 250-300 yards, I'll make do with what I have until I can make my own (it would probably be a hybrid mil-spec/sporter - mil-spec from trigger guard forward, sporter style from the trigger guard back to the butt). If it's not even good for minute of mule deer out to 150 yards I'll probably get a mil-spec replacement (or whatever is cheapest) to use until I can make a stock.

    Service irons on my Mauser start at 300 meters and go out to 2000 meters.
     
  12. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    i have two mausers, one bought from CDNN and one from wildalaska.
    the one from CDNN is a M98, meaning it was a battle issued k98, but the yugos ran it through their machine shops to remove the german markings.
    its sights start at 100 meters.

    the yugo m48 i bought from wildalaska has the exact same sights,

    both are accurate, and lots of fun to shoot. the m98 is more comfortable, it shoulders better, and its longer than the yugo m48, so the weight is balanced a little bit better. the bolt on the m98 is smoother, but the extractor needs replacing.
    also the stock is cracked at the rear of the action, so unless i do some searching tof ind whatever parts/stocks are out there, it'll be a wallhanger.

    the m48 is very accurate. i've only had opporutnity to shoot it out to 150 yards. judging the accuracy on paper can sometimes be misleading. most ranges measure in yards, so your 100 meter sight is not exactly going to hit where you think it should. probably be a little high.
     
  13. standingbear

    standingbear Member

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    my yugo started at the 300 and it was very accurate also,I just hated aiming low cause it shot high up to 100 yards.The german captures Ive seen look like basic k98s without the swastica..which is a-ok for me.

    looks like a k98 is in my future.Ive seen them going from 170 bucks on up to 300 ...and more for the collectors guns.Im not fancy on it being a collector-just a good shooter with a shiny bore with sharp rifling so what should i expect to pay for one?
     
  14. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

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    What's wrong with your Yugo that you want to replace it with a German K98?
     
  15. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    see if CDNN still has some, i paid $170 for mine (not including shipping or ffl fee).

    if you find one in excellent condition and sporterize it, i may have to hunt you down and give you a power wedgie. :D

    lots of gunstores have well-used k98s.
     
  16. standingbear

    standingbear Member

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    ..perish the thought..that would be like blasphemy.just want it to shoot an maybe restore to its original condition - not be afraid to hurt the gun..just enjoy it.

    I like the k98 over the yugo because of the sights.the yugo has the wood around the sights and Im alil slow picking out the sights in that cutout.the mauser starts at 100,yugo at 300...thats it.easy remedies but the k98 RC seems to have alot more history.
     
  17. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

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    That's why I'm going to put Mojo sights on the Turk, and possibly my Swede Mauser. They don't require any permenant modifications to the rifles, so they can easily be restored to issued condition. Best part is they fix the problem of shooting way high at 100 yards that plagues most mausers.

    I was going to get a "no-gunsmithing" scope mount and a scout scope for both the Turk and the Swede, but budgetary constraints have put the brakes on that project. Besides, I figure the Mojo's ought to be good enough for the ranges I'm likely to be shooting deer and elk at anyway.
     
  18. MrMurphy

    MrMurphy Member

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    My father has a WW1 issue Mauser Gewehr 98 kb (full length rifle , turned down bolt handle) made in 1918. With the issue iron sights we hit a truck sized target at 950 meters repeatedly from the sitting position. It was easier due to better sights with my Lee-Enfield No.4 Mk1, but both hit over 20 shots at 940-950 meters with ball ammo and the irons. Large target, but it was way in the hell out there.

    300m and 600 meter targets were even easier.
     
  19. Feanaro

    Feanaro Member

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    Which Yugo are we speaking of? Mine starts at 200 meters.
     
  20. Moparmike

    Moparmike Member

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    Oddly enough, a downwardly-plunging firey handbask
    I just wish I had the skill to hit a target with a rifle at any range. The last time I shot my 8mm Czech 24/47, my paper looked like a pattern, not a group. :eek:

    Maybe if I get my dad's .22 sighted in, I can get some skillz. ;)



    BTW, that 8mm Turk is hot. I cant remember what year I just picked up a 1400rd case of though. I almost regret not getting the Romanian. Interordinance has 740rd cases for $50 and less.
     
  21. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

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    J&G in Prescott has 700 round cases of Turk 8mm for about $30 (+shipping of course if you don't live nearby). AFIAK they are late 1930's-early 1950's production. My remaining Turk ammo is from the 1400 round lot I bought from them with the Turk rifle. Frankly the only reason I'd buy any more Turk ammo would be so I could pull the bullets and reload them in new brass with non-corrosive primers. I doubt I'd even reuse the powder (it's a pretty dirty burning powder). At that rate the bullets would be about 4.5 cents each, compared to about 10 cents each for Remington bulk pack PSP bullets.
     
  22. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Hi, jfruser,

    Just for info, the Model 1903 is not a copy, flawed or otherwise, of the Mauser Model 1898. It is a combination of the Krag rifle and the Model 1893 "Spanish" Mauser, which was well known to the U.S. ordnance department. Certain features of the Model 1898 Mauser either do not appear at all on the Model 1903 or are made in an entirely different way. For example, the Model 1898 Mauser has an unobtrusive safety lug, but the Model 1903 borrowed its safety lug from the Krag.

    Most indications are that the Springfield designers had never seen a Model 1898 Mauser when they set about designing what became the Model 1903.

    Jim
     
  23. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Most of the "flaws" of the M1903 aren't flaws at all. The magazine cut-off is also an elegant bolt release -- much less liable to break than the Mauser spring-loaded affair. The two-piece firing pin is much better than the Mauser version -- lots of Mauser firing pins were broken during field stripping (which is why so many Mausers have a dismount hole in the stock.) The Springfield bolt is easier to strip, and the firing pin tip easily replaceable.
     
  24. twoblink

    twoblink Member

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    In reality, the 8mm, the 30.06, and the 308 are similar in ballistics. If ordered, it'd go 8mm, 30-06, and then the 308. If you buy factory loads, I'd dare say there is almost no noticable difference in performance.

    If you handload, the 30-06 is probably going to be the hottest, if you look at the specs..

    That said, I prefer the mauser in 308, due to ammo availability. It's cheap and highly available.. And if you own an FN-FAL or M1A, then the 308 is definitely the way to go logistically..

    308 either Portug. Milsurp or Argentine. Milsurp is cheap cheap cheap to shoot, and if you buy it in bulk, the prices are close to the 5.56mm. So remember to factor in things like ammo availability, tip styles available, and cost when you consider all this. I'll gladly give up 100-200fps (which is probably what you do with the 8mm -> 308) if it costs me HALF the price in ammo... and 10x the availability.

    Nosler partitions, hollow points, soft points, blah blah blah, there isn't a tip in the world that isn't made for the 308.. But the 8mm on the other hand, is a bit more limited.
     
  25. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    You have a good point, there Twoblink. For handloaders, the .308 calibers are the way to go -- all sorts of components available. In 8mm, the choice of bullets is much more limited.

    If I had a choice, I'd go with the .30-06 first, the .308 next, and the 8mm last -- but not at the cost of replacing a prefectly good barrel.
     
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