90's ammo ban..?

[Shanghai McCoy]

Back in the early/mid 1990's there was a big "hubbub" about some version of the Chinese 7.62x39 ammo that we were all buying to shoot in our,(then), bargain priced SKS's. I can not remember what prompted the controversy but I do recall a Federal ban was initiated. Went from stacks of wooden boxes of "spam" cans to nothing.
Anyone recall what the heck it was all about..?

(In my defense for forgetting, I was working overseas and out of the country for 4-5 months at a time.)

 

[jonnyc]

Much of the Chinese 7.62x39 ball ammo has a mild steel core. This is not a hardened AP core, mind you, but simply a crap steel rod that made for a cheaper core than lead. Not sure what ignoramus dubbed it AP, or idiot chambered a pistol in the caliber, but the end result was the ammo violated the ATF's "NO AP Pistol Ammo" ruling. Now speculators sell it as "rare Chinese AP ammo" and fools buy it as such.
How's that for a nutshell explanation?

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Yep, now I recall what it was all about. That steel core stuff was everywhere. Tore the heck out of the steel plate targets at our club range.
That's good "rememberin'" Sir.
Thanks.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Not long ago I saw the stuff selling for a buck a round on Gunbroker.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Not long ago I saw the stuff selling for a buck a round on Gunbroker.

Was anyone actually buying the stuff at that price..?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Yep

 

[lysanderxiii]

Didn't have much to do with steel cores or allegedly being "AP". Much of the copper washed cheap stuff was lead core anyway. Mostly it was banned because it was made by Norico.

In 1993, the import of most Norinco firearms and ammunition into the United States was blocked under new trade rules when China's permanent normal trade relations status was renewed. The prohibition did not apply to sporting shotguns or shotgun ammunition, however, 7.62 x 39 does fall under that category (or 7.62mm x 54R which was also plentiful, cheap and fairly accurate). In August 2003, the Bush Administration imposed sanctions on Norinco for allegedly selling missile-related goods to Iran. These sanctions led to a prohibition on imports into the US of the remaining types of firearms and ammunition not covered by the 1993 ban.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Yep

Wow..

lysanderxiii, That's a pretty complete explanation. I think Norinco is/was the only arms company in China ?
Ya gotta "love" the whole trade with China hoops that get jumped through.

 

[JohnKSa]

In 1993, the import of most Norinco firearms and ammunition into the United States was blocked under new trade rules when China's permanent normal trade relations status was renewed.

It happened in 1994 and it was the result of executive action by Clinton. According to Clinton, himself, he banned the import of most small arms and ammo as punishment for human rights abuses in general and the Tiananmen Square incident in particular.

Here's some information I dug up for a post I made on another forum a few years ago.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=50241

"William J. Clinton
The President's News Conference
May 26, 1994
...
In view of the continuing human rights abuses, I am extending the sanctions imposed by the United States as a result of the events in Tiananmen Square, and I am also banning the import of munitions, principally guns and ammunition from China.
...​

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/19...75_1_human-rights-trade-and-human-china-human

In a mild sanction, Mr. Clinton said that the United States would ban the import of munitions, mainly ammunition and cheap automatic rifles that have poured into the country and have become a mass-market assault weapon.​

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/27/news/27iht-mfn_1.html

Nevertheless, Mr. Clinton took a series of steps designed to maintain at least some pressure on China:

He ordered a ban on the importation of Chinese-made weapons and ammunition...​

http://tech.mit.edu/V114/N27/china.27w.html

To demonstrate what he stressed was his administration's continuing concern about human rights in China, Clinton said he was banning the import of Chinese munitions and taking several other small steps to support the pro-democracy cause in China.​

 

[Walkalong]

IIRC, it got labeled AP after the AK pistols came out. Wasn't an issue until then. I don't remember all the details though.

 

[rust collector]

IIRC, Olympic made a 7.62x39 pistol that triggered some restrictions. I also read that Chinese theft/sale of missile technology was implicated during the Bush era. Norinco was not a producer so much as a marketer, and a convenient target for trade sanctions. I suspect that the sale of all this cheap ammo and firearms that were no longer surplus military but cheaply made to dump on US consumers put the hurt on US firearms and munitions producers.

 

[Speedo66]

Norinco was also implicated in a smuggling deal where they were bringing in full auto AK’s for sale to underworld characters. 2000 guns were brought in and captured in a sting operation.

 

[boom boom]

There is a separate law, the GCA act of 1968, that defines armor piercing bullet material as "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely ...(i) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”

Bullets made from banned material cannot be used for handgun ammunition. But, the act also allows the Attorney General to determine whether or not ammunition is used for sporting purposes. "The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended, provides the Attorney General the authority to exempt projectiles from the restrictions applicable to “armor piercing” ammunition if he determines the projectile is “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”

The ATF banned Russian 7N6 5.45x39 ammunition in 2014 from being imported as armor piercing and capable of being used in a handgun due to a steel penetrating rod. https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition

Similarly, in 2015, the ATF spawned a panic when it announced they were reexamining the 1986 AG exemption of M855 green tip and SS109 ball ammunition because these could be used in handguns (AR pistols) and readily penetrate body armor using the same analysis. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs-0/download

 

[Walkalong]

There is a separate law, the GCA act of 1968, that defines armor piercing bullet material as "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely ...(i) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”

Better explanation than mine, didn't remember the details.

 

[Zoogster]

We really punished those Chinese, while most products sold at the Walmarts putting all the mom and pop business out of business at the time sold everything else from China the minor loss of arms sales to US citizens would have had barely any deterrent. What it really did was create a convenient excuse to prohibit Americans from getting cheap Chinese guns. This is the same administration that expedited the destruction of US stockpiles of M14 rifles expressly to prevent them from being retired into civilian hands. Even though many were high quality lightly worn firearms as they were made in high numbers but the official service weapon a short time.

But the joke is on The Clinton administration, what it did is shield US arms manufacturers from competition with Chinese products and allow them to thrive stronger than most other markets that have to compete with the Chinese.
So even though I sometimes wish I could get some of the guns even available to Canadians without the Norinco restriction, I know we have far nicer products available produced in America over the last couple decades precisely because I can't buy a bunch of Chinese copies.

 

[JohnKSa]

What it really did was create a convenient excuse to prohibit Americans from getting cheap Chinese guns.

Correct. At the time, you could get a new Chinese SKS rifle and 500 rounds of Chinese 7.62x39 ammunition for just under $100 before tax. About that same time, you could buy Chinese 7.62x25 pistol ammo for around 5 cents around in bulk. It was the cheapest centerfire ammo on the market.

It was obviously an intolerable situation from Clinton's standpoint and he took what steps he could to eliminate it.

 

[Zoogster]

And Instead he created a situation where AR-15s and AR-15 after market parts made in America became a strong enough business at least for several years to support a large number of domestic manufacturers. The Chinese would have cut the air right out of the sails of any of that if they could just flood the market with products costing half as much. Innovation would have been a lot less and half the products you can choose from to completely customize modular firearms into whatever you choose would have never existed.
It also would have taken out the profits and so eliminated a financial ally in preserving our rights, if most firearm products were produced in China like many other products.

This ban is probably a strong reason why we have retained the freedom we have since that time.

There is other import restrictions like those that prevent many of the types of guns most suited to concealed carry on a budget from meeting import requirements, and instead have resulted in most of that market having to be met by domestic production.

US firearms domestic production largely exists because of these types of restrictions, and by extension an ally that spends money in supporting our rights is probably primarily strong because of them.
Ironically measures taken by antigunners to damage Americans ability to own firearms has helped them as much or more than many pro-gun efforts.
How many products in high demand can you produce for the general public that do not have to compete with Chinese production can you even cite?
It has also helped our own military by creating a market that allows the military to customize and adjust their own weapons. Every single part of the AR-15 is made by many different manufacturers and every single part can be purchased on the civilian market in nicer quality than on military weapons.
This has kept a design half a century old relevant and the best option after swapping some parts.
All the big manufacturers borrow from each other and the huge domestic market of AR-15s is why our military has been able to keep updating the m16 platform using innovation from civilian market design and turn it into exactly what is desired with aftermarket parts until they are sure they want a large number of them and have a big manufacturer just start producing a stock firearm with most of those design changes on contract.
So I would say the AR-15 and the m16 family of firearms owe a lot of their existence and popularity and modernization to Clinton. Just compare an 80s and before gun and the options of what it could become to today. That is all because we have not just been buying AK knockoffs for half as much, which is what the civilian market would have been doing. How many threads of best gun for __ on a budget do you see? A Chinese copy would have always been the answer.

 

[Snowdog]

I bought Norinco "yellow" and "silver" box 7.62x39 whenever I would stop by the local gun shop just because it was so cheap. I believe $1.75 for a box of 20 is what I was paying. Yes, that was for use it my $90 new-in-cosmoline Norinco type 56 SKS and what I think was called either a model M or D paratrooper model (no bayonet, shorter barrel, thumbhole sporter that took AK mags) what cost all of $125.

Heck, it really doesn't seem that long ago. I still have a few rounds of the yellow box ammunition. They were the ones with the mild steel core. To my knowledge it wasn't for additional penetration as much as it was cheaper to manufacture.

This was back when I could have bought as many SVT-40s and No4 Mk1 Enfields for $140 from the local Rose's department store (I wish I bought more than I did). Man, those were the days. They were also the days of the Assault Weapon Ban of '94... so perhaps "the good 'ol days weren't always good" as Joel sang. Standard capacity magazines (for Beretta 92s, Glocks, etc) where stupid expensive while .303 British, 7.62x39, 7.62x25, 8x56R and 8x57JS military surplus was stupid cheap.