9mm, 9mm Largo, 9x21, 9x23, .38 Super, etc

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Coronach

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Can someone give me a quick rundown on the various "oddball" 9mm/.38cal autoloader cartridges out there? I don't need a full blown history lesson, just a primer of what's what, what's expensive to shoot, what's hard to find, relative power, and, perhaps most importantly, what combos can be fired out of one gun (with replacement barrels, of course).

A link to a FAQ would do, too.

Thanks,

Mike
 
I'll try my hand.

There's 9x17, which has also been called 9mm Police, 9mm Kurtz, and is now commonly known as .380. ~90-95gr. Famous guns chambered for the round include the PPK, Sig P230. Infamous guns include pretty much anything you'll find in a pawnshop under $150. Not bad, but there are better alternatives for self-defense.

You've got 9x18, also known as 9mm Makarov. Used in Maks, P64's and CZ82's. A hot ~95-100gr round that's a bit better than .380 for penetration. There used to be alot of milsurp ammo for it, but it's getting harder to find.

9x19, which is also known as Parabellum or Luger (I love asking people "Parabellum or Luger?" when they ask for a "box o' nines.") The most widely used cartridge on earth. 95-147gr bullets, can be loaded to high pressures, and is cheap and available in too many loadings and brands to list. A true defensive cartridge. Most modern companies have at least one flagship gun chambered for it.

9mm Largo is an older Spanish cartridge from the turn of the 20th century that saw a brief resurgence in popularity in the 1980s. Alot of Stars and Astras were built for the cartridge. Not sure of the ballistics, but it inspired the 9x23.

9x21 is an Italian oddball. I once saw it used at a match. Same loadings as 9x19, but with a longer case. Performance is said to be similar. I don't know of any commercially available guns chambered for it.

9x23. Ahhh...this is where it gets fun! ~1430fps in 124gr loadings. This is what .357SIG should've been (not that it's a bad round, but...). A friend has a 1911 chambered for it, and it's a great round. Flat trajectory, good velocity, mild recoil. Some claim it's as effective as .357 Magnum against little furry critters. There's a good article on it here.

Hope this helps. I'm sure some other folks have more experience with the rarer ones than I do, so I look forward to reading them. Actually, if we want to compile a faq, I'd be glad to host it.

I WANT a nice 9x23 autoloader, but ammo's a bit hard to find.
 
Mike here's some info, mostly from the Speer Reloading Manual, Number 13.

9mm - 9x19mm Industry Max 35K PSI. Run of the mill 9mm. Rimless. SRM13 lists 124gr JHPs at 1000 to 1100 fps at standard pressure.

9x21 is to my understanding a copy of the 9x19 but with the case 2mm longer to skirt laws in countries forbidding civillian ownership of guns in "military" calibers.

9mm Largo - Spanish name for the 9x23 size 9mm Bergmann-Bayard. Rimless. SRM13 notes that CCI Speer has limited pressures to 30K PSI in deference to the old Astra 400 blowback pistols. 124gr JHPs from 1000 to 1100 fps. They note that .38 Super is a tad hot for the old blowback Astras, and that the semi-rimmed case of the Super also causes feedin problems in them.

38 Super - 9x23mm Semi-rimmed. 33K c.u.p. 124gr JHPs at from 1117 to 1312 fps in SRM13.

SRM13 lists no data for the 9x23 Winchester other than note not to fire it in 9mm Largo pistols since it "...operates at nearly twice the pressure." I infer this to mean that 9x23 Win runs in the mid to high 50K psi range. Hodgdon websitelists max pressure for this cartridge at 46K psi propelling a 125gr JHP @ 1300 fps. Winchester lists their 125gr Super-X JHP at 1450 fps.

There are of course the .357 SIG which is 40 S&W necked to 9mm, the .38 Casull which is a 45 ACP necked to 9mm, and the 9x25 Dillon which is a 10mm auto necked to 9mm.

I know BullfrogKen shoots a 1911 in 9x23 and runs 9x19 with only a bbl. swap. I've read that you can run .38 Super & 9x19 likewise. I suppose you could run 9x21 and 9mm Largo in the same manner, if you just really wanted to spend a ton of money on bbls and odd european ammo.

More Info:
The 9x18 Makarov uses .360" diameter bullets, rather than the .355" diameter standrd for Western hemisphere 9mms. SRM13 lists max pressure at 24.1 K psi. 90 gr GDHP @ approx 1050 -1100 fps.

.380 auto is listed @ 21.5 K psi, 90 gr GDHP @ approx 950-1050 fps.
 
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ugaarguy said: I know BullfrogKen shoots a 1911 in 9x23 and runs 9x19 with only a bbl. swap.

Yep. He sure does.

I might be all washed up about this, but as I recall the 9x21 was developed to get around IPSC's rule kicking 9mm out of Major . . . even if it made major over the chrony . . . I recall IPSC's rules flat out said 9mm couldn't make major. Period. No matter how fast you got a handload to travel.


If you want to shoot 38 Super or 9x23, you need a gun capable of handling the size of the round. The OAL is just about the same size as a 45 ACP. So, the only guns they can be chambered in are ones with a deep enough mag well. The 1911 pretty much is the only real alternative in regards to cost and part availability.


Get a 1911 in one of the "nine's/.355 diameter" variety. It doesn't matter which: 9mm, 38 Super, even the few that left the factory in 9x23. If you get one of them, you'll be able to switch to whichever in that .355 family you want. 9x23s and 38 Supers can be shot out of the same barrel, provided your pistolsmith set up the gun properly to handle it.

For 9mm, swap the barrel and recoil spring, and that's it. Pretty much the same for 9x21, but that caliber is nearly obsolete now. The heyday of IPSC is over, and the only following 9x21 gets is from IPSC competitors. And serious IPSC competitors handload anyway.
 
I should have not put 9mm in that list, as I am familiar with 9x17, 9x18, 9x19 (owning guns in all three).

That last tidbit is what I was looking for, and it looks like the "major" players in the 9mm/.38 auto game are .38 Super (for popularity) and 9x23 (for potential/ballistics)...and If I get a 1911 set up for 9x23, I can shoot 9x23, .38 Super and 9mm, just by switching barrels and recoil springs?

Sounds like a plan.

Mike
 
Some that I found by searching for "medusa" are (bold are the ones that haven't been mentioned, maybe due to the utter obsolescence).

9mm Luger, 9mm Largo, 9x21mm, .380ACP, .38Spl, .38S&W, .38ACP, .38 Super, .357Mag, 9x18 Ultra, 9mm Glisenti, .38Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, 9mm Federal (rimmed), 9mm Browning Long (9x20), .356TSW, 9x23

Looks like there is a 9x17, 9x18, 9x19, 9x20, and a 9x21. Crazy. Why didn't anyone think to make a 9x22? Might as well.

I say get a gun that runs 9mm Glisenti! Sounds like fun doesn't it?

Of course you could just get the Medusa and not have to worry about changing out parts to shoot other calibers. :D

ETA; Sorry I don't have ballistics info about these. I doubt much exists.
 
Dear Lord, my head hurts. :D

What's the OAL of a .45 magwell? I know it will accept 9x23. Will it accept 9x25?

I think it might be fun to get a custom 1911 that would accept as many of these chamberings as possible.

"What are we shooting today?"

"Oh, I figured I'd drag out the 9mm Glistenti..."

(Yes, I know that some of these are so scarce as to be meaningless, and some would require enough tweaking of the extractor/breachface as to make interchangability impractical).

Mike
 
Do any of y'all have thought on running the hotter 9x19mm-compatible* 9mm rounds in guns with aluminum alloy frames? How 'bout Officer's ACP sized 1911s with alum alloy frames?

Is there really any advantage of .38Super when 9mm+P+ is available?


*Meaning, same bullet diam & same/close enough head. For example, 9x19 & .38Super
 
Oh, one other thing in the Great 9mm Quest.

Bullet diam & cartridge head may be same/close enough. But, body taper is not identical. For instnance, a fellow handloader who loads several 9mm rounds said his .38Super dies can not be used to create 9mm Largo ammo, as the body taper is different.

BTW, those Astra 400 pistols are pretty neat when it comes to disassembly.
 
9mm Mauser for the C-96 Broomhandle

Bullet diameter: .355"
Rim diameter: .390"
Case length: .891" (25mm)
Bullet weight: 128 grains (DWM full-metal case bullet)
Muzzle velocity: 1362 fps
Year introduced: 1908

Source: Cartridges of the World, 6th Edition by Frank C. Barnes (yes, an older one.)

I just had to find that or it would have driven me nuts for the rest of the day.
:D
 
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I just read in one of my back issues of AH that the 9x23 was partially based on the proprietary 9mm Devel.
 
jfruser said: Do any of y'all have thought on running the hotter 9x19mm-compatible* 9mm rounds in guns with aluminum alloy frames? How 'bout Officer's ACP sized 1911s with alum alloy frames?

Is there really any advantage of .38Super when 9mm+P+ is available?

Yes. My 9x23 is an alloy Commander. I have several friends who have a 9x23 alloy Officer frame/Commander slide hybrid.

And yes.

Mike,

Jim Garthwaite built these for us. If you're looking at this seriously, Jim's a guy you ought to talk to. Setting up a 9x23 isn't something one oughta do at the kitchen table . . . unless he really knows what he's doing.
 
There is of course another platform that can give you all kinds of 9x23 (using the term generically of course) shooting pleasure:

http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-steel-Full-EI.html

I was going to do the same project on a Rock Island .38 Super, but testosterone got the best of me and I just had to have 18 rounds in a magazine.

:evil:

125gr x 1450fps x 18 = lots of fun!

:D

I scored a base Witness with the Super Sight upgrade from Ron Reed for just over $400. Much better sights than the base gun. I added some nice wood grips that have been sitting in my parts bin for a bit. I also had plenty of spare mags from some past pistols. It seems to not care whether I use 9x23 or .38 Super brass, functioning with either. Many members on the CZ Clone Club have reported similar experiences with their Witness Supers. Once my dies get here I will be all set to produce ammo in quantity. I had quite a bit of Super brass on hand from a generous friend, but likely will switch to 9x23 later on.

John
 
9 mm = .354 inches. Most 9 mm bullets actually measure from .355 to .357 inches in diameter.

A 9 mm diameter x 17 mm long round has many common names.
Among them are:
.380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)
9 mm Corto
9 mm Kurz or Kurtz
9 mm Browning Short
".380 ACP" is the term most commonly used in the U.S., the other terms are used more commonly in Europe and elsewhere.

A 9 mm diameter x 18 mm long round is often called:
9 mm Makarov (actually 9.2 mm)
9 mm Police
9 mm Ultra

A 9 mm diameter x 19 mm long round is often called:
9 mm Parabellum
9 mm Luger
9 mm NATO
This is the most common 9 mm round. When the term "9 mm" is used alone, this is usually the round that is being referred to.

There are also other less common 9 mm rounds:
9 mm x 20 mm (Browning Long)(SR)
9 mm x 21 mm (IMI)
9 mm x 23 mm (Largo)(Steyr)(Bergmann-Bayard)

The .357 caliber bullet, as in ".357 Magnum (9 mm x 31 mm)" and ".357 SIG" are also 9 mm bullets.
The .38 caliber bullet, as in ".38 Special (9 mm x 29 mm)" is also a 9 mm bullet.
Most .357 caliber revolvers will also fire .38 Special rounds.

There are also other rounds with this same diameter bullet:
.38 S&W (Colt New Police)(Colt Super Police)
.38 Super Auto

That's all I can think of for now. I'm sure others can add more.
 
Jim Garthwaite built these for us. If you're looking at this seriously, Jim's a guy you ought to talk to. Setting up a 9x23 isn't something one oughta do at the kitchen table . . . unless he really knows what he's doing.
I'm serious, just not thinking about doing it right now. I have other priorities at the moment...I'm just gathering data for later.

Mike
 
What's the OAL of a .45 magwell? I know it will accept 9x23. Will it accept 9x25?
9x25 is a necked down 10mm Auto case. I think you'd need a 10mm or 40 S&W base gun for it, in order to have the proper extractor & breech face. Then again a call to Jim Garthwaite would get more concrete info.
 
Ah, I forgot that. Yes, if it is based off of 10mm, it should fit in a .45 ACP magwell. Looks like a slide swap would do it.

Set up properly, it looks like you could run 9mm and its oddball cousins, .40 and 10mm, and .45 ACP off of thesame frame, with just different barrels, springs and slides. True?

And yes, I'm aware that the "just" in that statement could get very expensive, very quickly. Just sayin'.

Mike
 
Yep. With ramped barrels you can do it.

I was present for the "Team Built" class Jim did for a few of us. One Team Member built a Commander that shot .45 ACP, 9mm, and 9x23. It required fitting 2 slides.
 
And yes, I'm aware that the "just" in that statement could get very expensive, very quickly. Just sayin'.
Well if you're gonna run 9mm, 10mm, and 45 cases in the same gun you might as well fit a .38 Casull bbl. That gives you both extremes - 9mm in a necked down .45 ACP case. At work we had a 6" Casull Arms 1911 so chambered and it was beautiful. :evil:
 
The ORIGINAL 9x25 was the 9mm Mauser Export, chambered in Broomhandles, most of which are said to have gone to Latin America. I know I have never seen one in person. Like the .30 Mauser, it is too long for a 1911.
 
Another little known 9mm cartridge is the 357 SIGlong. This semi-wildcat is created by loading the 357 SIG cartridge to 1.25", and feeding them from 10mm magazines in a re-barrelled Delta Elite. (My choice, others have used the same system in Glock 20s and 29s).

It is still behind the 9x25,but not by much.

The biggest problem with the hot 9's is the lack of suitable bullets. Penetration can be severely limited by excessive expansion. The 357 SIG Gold Dot bullets work well, as do the 147 grain XTPs.

Its kind of fun shooting a Gov't model that has the power of a .357 magnum! (Yes, I know that you can load heavier bullets, and with longer barrels especially, the .357 magnum will out perform. But comparing a 5" Gov't model to a 4" revolver, and using the lighter bullets that many prefer for SD, the 2 perform in a very similar manner.)
 
The more I think about this, th emore I think I should do it. One frame, three slides, and everything from 9mm up to .45 ACP that will fit and feed from a standard magazine.

Forget the Medusa revolver, this is a Hydra autoloader.

Mike

PS I am steadfastly refusing to consider how much this would cost.
 
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