9mm brass - is there a significant difference
- Thread starter sirgilligan
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Potatohead
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Im big on sorting myself. Like Dave says, the small piles can be dealt with. I think I get a more consistent crimp with the same headstamps, and I cant stand looking at a box of loaded rounds that have all different headstamps. To messy for me.
JamieC
Member
You guys are starting to creep me out. I started reading this thread, the next thing I know I'm going through all my boxes of reloaded ammo sorting out the different head stamps. Back in my pot smoking days I'd probably have the 'mind set' to sit and do the sorting, I don't have the 'mind set', patience, attention span to do this easily! Now I'll have to go out to the range and see if I can see a difference between different head stamps, thanks guys!
mstreddy
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JamieC, no creeping out -- do what works for you. There are lots of good reasons to sort - if you want to. I mostly plink, I load at moderate levels, I don't compete, I don't try to make any power factors, so for all those reasons I don't sort my 9MM brass.
If I was pushing the envelope, I guess I would try sorting and see how it affected my loads.
If I was pushing the envelope, I guess I would try sorting and see how it affected my loads.
Toprudder
Member
For pistol brass (99% of what I shoot) I don't sort brass unless I am working up ladder loads. I also hand weigh every charge in every round. I just want to remove variables during this step. My normal bulk loading I don't bother.
gamestalker
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As some here are aware, I run pretty much full tilt exclusively. That said, those which have the set back canelure, or step / shelf as it were, haven't shown any indication of increased, or noticeable variations in pressures. So I honestly don't think internal case volume is diminished much, if any at all. If anything, they seem to only add a bit of neck tension, something that I always welcome with high pressure cartridge, such as 9mm.
But after the first or second loading, the canelure is barely visible anyway.
GS
But after the first or second loading, the canelure is barely visible anyway.
GS
There is a difference in a cannelure, which does not affect case volume, and the little "ledge" or "shelf" mentioned. The only problem it brings is if you seat a bullet below that point and it ends up too fat in that area.
^ I agree. I think CBC are slightly thicker brass in 9mm.
In 9mm, I find that the R-P cases are very slightly thinner, but not quite as thin as Speer and Blazer. Not enough to cause any issues. But the thinner cases might be a little more accurate for soft cast or plated bullets, if you're using a shallow expander plug. And I find my 9mm FC cases have abnormally deep primer pockets.
The only handgun brass I sort is 45ACP. I find some cases are just too thin for jacketed bullets with my sizing die; they don't provide adequate neck tension. What I do is feel how they expand, and the ones that are loose, I set aside for cast bullets, only. These turn out to be 99% R-P and S&B cases. But if some R-P cases pass the expander test, they go in the tight pile. And if a rare WIN fails the test, it goes in the loose pile. I don't discriminate base on headstamp. The expander plug doesn't lie.
Well, in a way, I guess I sort all my brass this way. By paying attention to expanding, this is how I find the odd 380 or mak case while loading 9mm. And I easily identify thin or worn out pickups and cracked necks in other calibers that need to be used with cast ammo, or even completely discarded. I have tossed more cases due to loose neck tension than I have for cracked necks or loose primer pockets.
I suppose you can't feel a difference in weight of the case, but to me, neck tension is the most important thing for my handgun ammo. Making sure I have enough. Sometimes you get loose cases of any headstamp. Sorting by headstamp is not an exact science, and you can have different runs of brass within the same headstamp and/or different number of firings, etc, that make a difference in neck tension.
If I want higher accuracy for some reason, I will sort out the same headstamp... but not from my supply of cases. I will pick out the same headstamp from my loaded ammo, once they're all end-up in an ammo tray, and after they've already been screened in the expanding stage. It's pretty rare that I feel this makes a difference for handgun ammo, but I might do it while loading a mag if I'm shooting for a group.
In 9mm, I find that the R-P cases are very slightly thinner, but not quite as thin as Speer and Blazer. Not enough to cause any issues. But the thinner cases might be a little more accurate for soft cast or plated bullets, if you're using a shallow expander plug. And I find my 9mm FC cases have abnormally deep primer pockets.
The only handgun brass I sort is 45ACP. I find some cases are just too thin for jacketed bullets with my sizing die; they don't provide adequate neck tension. What I do is feel how they expand, and the ones that are loose, I set aside for cast bullets, only. These turn out to be 99% R-P and S&B cases. But if some R-P cases pass the expander test, they go in the tight pile. And if a rare WIN fails the test, it goes in the loose pile. I don't discriminate base on headstamp. The expander plug doesn't lie.
Well, in a way, I guess I sort all my brass this way. By paying attention to expanding, this is how I find the odd 380 or mak case while loading 9mm. And I easily identify thin or worn out pickups and cracked necks in other calibers that need to be used with cast ammo, or even completely discarded. I have tossed more cases due to loose neck tension than I have for cracked necks or loose primer pockets.
I suppose you can't feel a difference in weight of the case, but to me, neck tension is the most important thing for my handgun ammo. Making sure I have enough. Sometimes you get loose cases of any headstamp. Sorting by headstamp is not an exact science, and you can have different runs of brass within the same headstamp and/or different number of firings, etc, that make a difference in neck tension.
If I want higher accuracy for some reason, I will sort out the same headstamp... but not from my supply of cases. I will pick out the same headstamp from my loaded ammo, once they're all end-up in an ammo tray, and after they've already been screened in the expanding stage. It's pretty rare that I feel this makes a difference for handgun ammo, but I might do it while loading a mag if I'm shooting for a group.
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16in50calNavalRifle
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Walkalong (#33) is correct - the little shelf inside some cases can be a problem for some loadings. Just loaded up some of my 9mm 147g Gold Dot "duplicate" loads (reasonably similar felt recoil, not overall performance - just for short-range home defense practice) .
"Learned" that there's a Speer case (headstamp has "9 X 19", word "Luger" does not appear) that has the little shelf inside the case the hard way. Loaded a bullet (FMJ) and the case crumpled. Right where that little ridge is inside. Guess those were range pick-ups, not sure.
So, for the second time ever, some 9mm sorting. But just to pick out the "9 X 19" cases for the brass scrap can. First 9mm sort was for S&B (tight primer pockets). I keep them, but segregate them, and use a particular primer in them (forget which one, I have many brands of primers).
I sort only as I move cases from their bulk storage container to the small container on the bench from which I draw my brass (Lee Classic Turret set-up). So the Speer brass problem actually introduced a useful step. Now I can not just separate out any S&B that escape earlier detection, but can separate out a few other potentially problem headstamps and load them as a group as I go.
RWS: cases can give me primer seating problems (not lately).
CBC: cases are definitely thicker, very noticeable difference in resistance when sizing and bullet seating.
WCC: vary, as one commenter noted above. Crimped ones I usually scrap.
TulAmmo: was surprised to encounter one - brass - last week; have never seen one before
GFL: primer pockets tight, work with some primers, not with others
"Learned" that there's a Speer case (headstamp has "9 X 19", word "Luger" does not appear) that has the little shelf inside the case the hard way. Loaded a bullet (FMJ) and the case crumpled. Right where that little ridge is inside. Guess those were range pick-ups, not sure.
So, for the second time ever, some 9mm sorting. But just to pick out the "9 X 19" cases for the brass scrap can. First 9mm sort was for S&B (tight primer pockets). I keep them, but segregate them, and use a particular primer in them (forget which one, I have many brands of primers).
I sort only as I move cases from their bulk storage container to the small container on the bench from which I draw my brass (Lee Classic Turret set-up). So the Speer brass problem actually introduced a useful step. Now I can not just separate out any S&B that escape earlier detection, but can separate out a few other potentially problem headstamps and load them as a group as I go.
RWS: cases can give me primer seating problems (not lately).
CBC: cases are definitely thicker, very noticeable difference in resistance when sizing and bullet seating.
WCC: vary, as one commenter noted above. Crimped ones I usually scrap.
TulAmmo: was surprised to encounter one - brass - last week; have never seen one before
GFL: primer pockets tight, work with some primers, not with others
kitsapshooter
Member
Thats funny. Brass with the same headstamp can have different weights unless they are all from the same batch. And even then there is some variations.
Potatohead
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WestKentucky
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On trimming...you will see both extremes and everything in between. I have no clue how many rounds I have loaded but I'm guessing it's around 18000...but again I have no clue. I load revolver, rifle, pistol, and dammed in shotgun for a while. I have NEVER trimmed a case. I know on my bottlenecks I need to as I am losing ground quickly on a couple, but on handgun rounds I have tried to cause failures to no avail. They simply don't stretch enough to worry about. The brass will work - harden and crack before you get a length issue. In handgun form, you can't possibly see a change in accuracy either unless you are Jerry Miculek.
On sorting...it's basically the same thing. You have the sorting crowd, the non-sorting crowd, and everything in between. I sort some calibers that I run hot...44mag, 357 mag, and all of my rifle calibers except 30-30. I see changes in pressure signatures on the primers if I run unsorted batches at the max or over in some loads. Lower pressure rounds like 38spl just get loaded in bulk. 9mm is one that is of higher pressure, but will not get sorted because nobody other than competition guys run the ragged edge on pressure...and they do for power factor just to get them barely into major class....and even a lot of those guys don't sort .
Good luck in reloading, it's part art, part science, a whole lot of enjoyment and the occasional bit of frustration. Be careful, do it by the book, and figure out your own way when it comes to these things. Do what makes you feel like your making the best ammo you can, and with practice you can and will make ammo better than what is sold on shelves.
On sorting...it's basically the same thing. You have the sorting crowd, the non-sorting crowd, and everything in between. I sort some calibers that I run hot...44mag, 357 mag, and all of my rifle calibers except 30-30. I see changes in pressure signatures on the primers if I run unsorted batches at the max or over in some loads. Lower pressure rounds like 38spl just get loaded in bulk. 9mm is one that is of higher pressure, but will not get sorted because nobody other than competition guys run the ragged edge on pressure...and they do for power factor just to get them barely into major class....and even a lot of those guys don't sort .
Good luck in reloading, it's part art, part science, a whole lot of enjoyment and the occasional bit of frustration. Be careful, do it by the book, and figure out your own way when it comes to these things. Do what makes you feel like your making the best ammo you can, and with practice you can and will make ammo better than what is sold on shelves.
chiltech500
Member
Imagine how long it maight take to aim - wow man!
Sort away cowboys, yahoo. I have enough to do to get out and shoot and make bullets for 45acp, 38sp and 9mm. The only sorting I've done is out of necessity - PMC have a thicker walled 38 casing and I can't load them into the revolver using H&G mold sunken where the little nipple is just peeking outside the case. (hows that for imagery)
Peter M. Eick
Member
What I tell folks is simple. Make up some ammo and from a mixed pot of 9mm load some mags and shoot some targets.
Next sort some brass and load some mags and shoot some targets.
At your skill level and gun it may not matter, but then again, it may. Try it, find out and report back your results. Help us learn.
In my case, my 210's can easily tell the two groupings apart. I can cut inches off my 15 yrds 50 shot groups by sorting my brass. But then again, I am using a SIG 210-5&6's and not some run of the mill Beretta or Glock.
Next sort some brass and load some mags and shoot some targets.
At your skill level and gun it may not matter, but then again, it may. Try it, find out and report back your results. Help us learn.
In my case, my 210's can easily tell the two groupings apart. I can cut inches off my 15 yrds 50 shot groups by sorting my brass. But then again, I am using a SIG 210-5&6's and not some run of the mill Beretta or Glock.
At my skill level, it doesn't matter, as I cannot shoot the difference with a 9MM handgun.
Certainly good advise to try though. There are people who can, I'm just not one of them. If I can hit my 10" round steel plate all the time at 40 yards, or my 12x17ish steel silhouette 3 or 4 times in a mag at 100 yards, I call it a good load.
Certainly good advise to try though. There are people who can, I'm just not one of them. If I can hit my 10" round steel plate all the time at 40 yards, or my 12x17ish steel silhouette 3 or 4 times in a mag at 100 yards, I call it a good load.
greyling22
Member
agreed. cbc's take a little more effort to resize. they shoot fine though. seller and belliot seem harder to resize as well.
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