A luger and rifle of WWI

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drk1

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This may not be the kind of research intended for this section, but I thought that some folks might find it interesting so here it is.

Several years ago, I came across a luger that had been issued to thethe 1st Company of the 4th Hannoverian Infantry Regiment Nr. 164 before the Great War. Some time later, I found a copy of that regiments history during the war. So, with the help of several on-line sites and what little I remembered from three years of college German classes, I managed to translate it. It was amazing! I learned more about the Great War from that one book than I had learned in years of school. For example, in spite of what we read in text books that the French stopped the German advance at the Marne River in what has become known as the "Miracle on the Marne," I.R. 164 had crossed the Marne and fought its way to the village of Mondemont, which is about 40 miles beyond the Marne and the site the French National Memorial of the Victory of the Marne. However, with regard to firearms, one of the many interesting passages was this:

" On March 24, [1915] the Regiment was relieved by Infantry Regiment 92 and received local quarters in Bazancourt. There rifles, sidearms and ammunition were handed over…. At noon on March 26, the Regiment stood at the exit from Bazancourt to Boult in the open square to bid farewell to the superiors…. In the afternoon of the same day the Battalions were loaded and transported…. The Regiment was equipped with 88er rifles…."

It turned out that the Gewehr 98s which the Regiment had been using since 1904 were taken from them and put into the hands of the fresh troops, many school age and college volunteers, who had received very little training but were pushed forward with the German offensive in April 1915. On the German side, those involved in this spring offensive came to be known as the "Heroes of Langemarck." On the allied side they were known as the heroes of the First Battle of Ypres. In the meantime, the veterans of Infantry Regiment 164, had to fight with old, worn out Gew 88s. Some time after that, I managed to find one. Thought you might like to have a look. Thanks for your time.

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Thanks for sharing that. Quite interesting.

So, do I understand correctly that the 88 pictured was originally issued to the 164th back in the day and then went into storage at the Regimental Depot in 1904, when they took delivery of 98s? Then, in March of 1915, having been taken off the line, they handed over their 98s to some Heinie -come-latelies and were reissued the Regiment's old 88s out of storage?

If so, were they then sent back to the line with 88s, or were they so shot up at that point that they were returning to the Regimental Depot for reorganization and rearmament?

And do I understand that you now have a Luger and an 88 Kommission from the 164th? Because that is extraordinarily cool!
 
Hello Doc Rock: thanks for reading. No, the G88 was originally issued to another unit. Unfortunately, we don't know which unit originally received it. Regulations at the time specified that for the Gew 88 rifle, the unit number was to be stamped on the barrel band. So originally, the Gew 88s issued to IR 164 would have had that regiment's number along with the company number and the individual weapon number stamped on the barrel band. In 1904, when IR 164 received the new G98s, most of the old G88s would have had the IR 164 marked out and then gone to one of the larger arsenals, not the 164ths arsenal. The old G88s then would have been distributed to other units, a Landwehr or Landsturm or other reserve unit and stamped with that unit's number on the other barrel band.. Some regiments may have kept some of the old G88s, for their reserve or replacement troops, but that does not appear to have been a widespread practice. One of the reasons behind the marking was cost. If something was damaged or lost, it had to be repaired and/or replaced and the regiment had to pay for it out of its yearly budget. The 164th could not have afforded to keep the old rifles after receiving the new G98s in 1904. It couldn't even afford shoes for all the members of the regiment when the war alert was issued in 1914. This particular Gew 88 has a barrel band with a marked out number of "32. R.E. 4. 161", which indicates 2. Thüringisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 32, Ersatz Bataillone, waffe 161. That does not necessarily mean that IR 32 received this rifle when it was new. It is possible but not a certainty. Most of these rifle were sold to Turkey after the war and we know that many of the parts were changed around as required by wear. So that barrel band may have been on a different rifle during the war. The only way that we know that this particular rifle, and not just some of the parts, was reissued to IR 164 is that the IR 164 designation is stamped on the receiver, which is unusual and not according to regulations, and not one of the barrel bands as is most common.

With regard to the question of what happened after the members of IR 164 were reissued the old G88s, yes, they were sent back to the front with the old rifles. In the regimental history there are several comments about the problems of the old rifles and the fact that the troops didn't like them. They say the actions always had a problem with "schmutz" or dirt. There is also a later comment a the time when they gave up the G88s and were issued new G98s again that the brand new G98s were nice and far better than the G88s but they were not the same quality as their original G98s.

And yes, the first picture is of the luger, the second is of the luger grip strap, showing that it was issued to the 1st Company of IR 164, as weapon number 38. The third picture is the stamp on the receiver of the rifle and the fourth is of the rifle. The companies were divided into 3 battalions, with companies 1 thru 4 forming the Ist Battalion, 5 thru 8 forming IInd Battalion, and 9 thru 12 forming IIIrd Battalion. So the luger was carried by someone in the 1st Company and the G88 was carried by someone in the 9th Company. Because they weren't in the same battalion, they probably would not have been close personally or in combat, but I like to think that they would have know of each other.

Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion I caused. Thanks again for your interest. Oh, I almost forgot. I also have some postcards, letters, etc. from members of IR 164. Would there be any interest in seeing any of them?
 
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Confusion entirely on my part. Still confused a bit. The third picture shows the markings on an 88 Kommission rifle belonging to the 164th Regiment (9th company, weapon 199?). So, that had me thinking that it was in storage and reissued in 1915. If the Regimental markings were removed in 1904 when they got their 98s, how come this picture is available?

What a blow to morale it must have been to have surrender their 98s to some conscripts and take 88s in return! The reasons behind that are quite interesting. Were they in disgrace? I could understand if they were so badly mauled that they were being taken off the line for reorganization and replenishment. But to hand over their weapons, take the 88s and go back on the line? That's really strange. Any info on that?
 
Greetings again: It seems I've added to the confusion. In 1904, the old G88, perhaps but not necessarily from IR 32, was withdrawn from service and went into an arsenal somewhere. It was probably at this point that the IR 32 number was struck through, indicating that it no longer belonged to that regiment. It was serviced to make certain that all the required modifications had been done. Then it either sat in an arsenal or was shipped out to another unit such as a Landwehr or Landsturm unit. That unit was supposed to have stamped its numbers on the barrel band of the rifle. Unfortunately, even though it was a regulation, the experts estimate that only about 40% of units followed this regulation. So it might or might not have been stamped with a new number. If the other barrel band was struck with another regiment's number, that band was removed from the rifle at some point because there are no other unit marks present. Then in 1915, the rifle was either taken out of the arsenal or taken from the reserve unit that was using it and given to IR 164. When the war broke out in 1914, the Germans didn't have enough of a lot of supplies, including weapons and ammunition. Army regulations even specified that in the event of war, the rear units that had weapons would be expected to give them up to the front line units. IR 164 then stamped its number on the receiver. Why the receiver? There is no definitive explanation. IR 164 may have stamped it on the reciever either because there was no more room on the barrel bands, or the fellow in charge of their firearms simply thought that was the best place to do it at that time. The regiment was at reast and recovering so it didn't have to be done in a great hurry or under difficult conditions. In addition, they didn't know how long they were going to be using these old rifles, so stamping the receiver simply might have seemed like a good idea. There was a hierarchy with the German regiments and IR 164 was the 4th regiment from Hannover, in fact they were based in the town of Hamel famous for the pied piper of Hamel. Throughout the regiment's written history there is a tone that becauce they weren't the 1st or 2nd or even the 3rd regiment of Hannover, they tried a little harder. Another part of this sense of having to prove themselves comes from the fact that Hannover had come to the side of Prussia rather late in the formation of the German empire. As a result, there is this sense of needing to fight harder and be more efficious which might have been reflected in the effort they applied to stamping their weapons.

You're absolutely right about it being a blow to moral. Reading the regimental history you can tell that the air just goes out of them when their rifles are taken away and they are assigned to a newly created division. Tradition was an extremely important part of the German military and being assigned to a new unit was not well received. This reassignment combined with having to surrender their rifles was as though they were being punished. In addition, from their perspective, they had fought harder and gone deeper into France than almost all of the other regiments. And the tone of their history indicates that they expected to have been victorious if all of the other regiments had fulfilled their assignments. When the order came to withdraw back to the other side of the Marne, it was so unbelievable that they hesitated and waited until the order was confirmed. It's not as though they disobeyed an order or were disgraced as you mention. There is no explanation in the history that I can see.... However, I can only see the obvious things. Yes, they were very badly mauled and needed to be replenished with both men and equipment, but what I suspect is that their treatment was in large part the result of personal politics further up the line. It was clear that the march on Paris had not gone as planned -- someone had made some serious errors -- but that someone was not the troops in combat but rather the commanders much further up the line. Generals von Kluck and Bulow are traditionally painted as the ones who screwed up. I don't known enough to understand the personal relations among the brigade, division, army corps, army commanders as well as royalty to know who was tied or linked to whom. Unfortunately, in this case it would appear that while the higher command was looking for answers, the troops also suffered. Another part of it was that the higher command already had this new, big offensive planned for April and it was pretty clear that IR 164 wouldn't be in any shape to play a major role in that plan, so maybe higher command just decided to let them rest. At that time, the process for refitting a regiment with this kind of strain and losses was still fairly new. Yes, there were rules and regulations for that too, but the presures of the war were unprecedented so things were changing more than expected. Traditionally, refitting involved having new recruits sent from the regiment's home town, but that traditionally took weeks if not months. But so many recruits were need for so many regiments and they were needed immediately that the traditional system wasn't working, so that necessitated other changes to the system. In the big picture, the "system," as I understand it, consisted of three layers or tiers. There was the front line or combat area that was controlled by the field army. Then there was the area between the field army and home. This area was the "Lines of Communication" and had it own set of commanders, rules and regulations. Then there was the area at home, where both military authorities and civil authorities controlled different aspects of the supply chain. In addition, there was the Quartermaster who was responsible for some activities in all three areas, but lacking in complete control at the front and at home. There is a book by Hermann Cron, Imperial German Army 1914-1918: Organization, Structure, Orders-of-Battle, that I've read dozens of times and still can't figure out how things worked. Anyway, I hope all of that adds more clarity than confusion. Thanks again for your interest.
 
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Army regulations even specified that in the even of war, the rear units that had weapons would be expected to give them up to the front line units. IR 164 then stamped its number on the receiver. Why the receiver? There is no definitive explanation. IR 164 may have stamped it on the reciever either because there was no more room on the barrel bands, or the fellow in charge of their firearms simply thought that was the best place to do it at that time. The regiment was at reast and recovering so it didn't have to be done in a great hurry or under difficult conditions.

That clears it up for me. Thanks very much
 
Hello Mr Watson: Thanks for the question. The G88 has the G88/05 conversion. By the time the war broke out in 1914, most of the G88s would have had the conversion. As you probably know, G88 and the G98 were designed to shoot two different rounds. The It would have been a challenge for the German army to have to keep both types of 8mm around and they didn't want to have to supply the enblock clips to some units with one type of ammunition and the stripper clips with another type of ammunition to others. But having said that, I know that they did because I have seen a few G88s in their original configurations that came back to the US with GIs after the war. Most of the ones that I have seen that survived in their original configuration did not have unit marks, so I always wondered were they were and how that happened. In the case of this G88, I suspect that one of the reasons that IR 164 received their G98s in 1904 was that the arsenals were getting ready to do the G88/05 conversions, so it was a good time to gather them in. There are two great books on the G88 both by Paul Scarlata, The Collector's Guide to the Gew 88. Commission Rifle and Das Gewehr 88: Deutschlands erstes modernes Militärgewehr. There's also a much larger (and more expensive book) on German military rifles up to the G88 that might be of interest by Dieter Storz, Deutsche Militärgewehre Band 2: Schußwaffen 88 und 91, but it is in German. Thanks again for the interest.
 
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