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A new taste is developing for a 410 side by side

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Frostbite, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. George P

    George P Member

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    ABSOLUTELY! and especially true when hunting live critters as opposed to clay targets.

    Since the OP is in Quebec, do you get to take advantage of the Winchester $2/box rebate they offer twice a year? If so, that would help offset the higher cost of the ammo. You will want tighter chokes than those you would use on a 20 gauge to keep the pattern tight and dense for best killing power.
     
  2. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Yes, we have access to some kind of mail-in rebates on Winchester ammunition ($5 per, box, max two boxes, some deer hunting ammo in rifle), but no, I have never seen it applicable to 410, or shotshells, though it is fairly possible I lack information to this regard. I usually buy Challenger ammo for the twelve gauge, it is the local brand and they do just fine in common shells (7.5, 00 Buck, 1 oz slugs at 1600, all in 2.75") for a good price. I bought Remington for geese (think it was 3" steel 2) and turkey (think it was 3" plated 5). A little more expensive, but for such a limited quantity, that was alright.

    I had considered the option of a pump 410 as it would be easier to finance brand new or to find in good shape used over here, but because I already own a pump twelve, I don't see as much attractiveness in that path. Oddly, twelve and twenty -especially twenty- side by side shotguns are more abundant on the used market here and they don't get much attention either from myself: as written in an earlier post, it is the combination of the gauge and this action which I think go together so well, creating an elegantly sufficient proposition to take afield.

    I thought might just stop in town today to hear how much money they would ask from me to order a Ylidiz Elegant A4. The Baïkal and CZ shop is in the city though, it might take a bit longer before I have to be there. Will see. I would love to handle any of the available options before buying, but I don't think it's going to be possible. I do keep an opened eye on the used market though, never know what can show up there.

    Edit: did not stop at the gun shop in town today, physiotherapist gave me some bad news and I didn't feel like it afterwards. Tomorrow is another day.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  3. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO Member

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    Well, as a Quebecer, you have access to some good woodcock hunting, so a 410 SxS makes some sense. Buying some clunky cheapo Baikal or Stoeger etc., does not. The joy of the 410 is that it should flow like a wand, not flail like a 2x4. The Yildiz may be a decent option as a hunting gun. Certainly worth checking out. I think Dickinson, made by AKUS, the best of the Turkish gun makers (they made S&W's Elite Gold and Kimber's Valier) offer the best value for money - but I don't know if there is a Canadian stockist. The Estate BLE is a well made, well finished gun, available in an oil finished, straight grip, splinter forend, double trigger, 26" configuration, scaled to 410.

    Decent review in Shooting Sportsman: https://shootingsportsman.com/dickinson-arms-estate-review/

    https://dickinsonarms.com/estate

    gun-review-2.jpg
     
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  4. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    According to their website, no Dickinson dealer in Canada, so I will guess none in Quebec! It might show up used. Sometimes surprising stuff comes up in the used market. I did want to buy new, but hey, if it is a good deal and the gun looks like new, why not? I guess I had not figured a worthy 410 side by side would cost as much. No problem, I am in no hurry. I will most definitely not try to import one from the USA by myself, I know better now than trying to cross the Canadian border with a gun that was not registered in the country. Even with a registered one (hunting trip in USA), last time was painful at the border. Try to explain something to someone who doesn't want to understand... got older, got more experience, got wiser. Beautiful gun though. I take good note of another vote against Baikal or Stoeger.
     
  5. George P

    George P Member

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    I have their 20 in the S&W configuration, very well made. The Winchester rebate I mentioned, at least ere in the US allows you a $2/box rebate for up to 50 boxes (4 flats)
     
  6. George P

    George P Member

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    Do you not have a Cabela's in Canada? They are the exclusive dealers for Dickinson
     
  7. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    We have Cabela's (not in Quebec, but it doesn't matter, the R.O.C. is just fine for web orders), but they don't offer Dickinson products. Even worst, they have Henry lever action rifles, but none of Henry's single shot rifles. Now, that is simply tragic. Maybe next year, who knows. Cabela's used to offer a wide variety of Encore rifle barrels, now they don't anymore. I would have to special order those in another shop in the city now, and delivery may take more than a year, or so I was told over there last time I had business there. Believe me, with regards to gun related offer, Québec province is very, very far from the USA. I guess geography has got nothing to do with it! And I am not even beginning to mention the forbidden evil black rifle, or the vicious restricted handguns, because my topic here is a 410 side by side...
     
  8. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO Member

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    Here you go. Worth looking into. Another Turkish maker Akkar, this one based in Istanbul rather than Huglu. Available in Canada from Reliable Gun and Dante Sports in Montreal. 26", Straight/splinter, oil finish. But, single selective trigger, which I don't like but shouldn't be a deal breaker. Extractors only :(

    From the Akkar website: "As we extend Lifetime Warranty for workmanship of our shotguns, maximum quality production and service is our primary mission. Akkar Silah Sanayi Ltd. is accredited for the compliance of ISO-9001-2015 standards."

    My guess is similar in quality to Yildiz, so perhaps whichever you can see and judge fit best and has the better warranty.

    https://www.dantesports.com/en/shop/churchill-536-gold-english-stock/

    https://www.reliablegun.com/cz/chur...l-turkish-walnut-stock-extended-chokescicmimf

    Churchill-536-jpg-2017212232654-.jpg

    Akkar Website. https://www.akkar.com.tr/churchill-536-silver-2-553
     
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  9. George P

    George P Member

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    How about importing a gun from the UK? Is that an easier proposition than the US?
     
  10. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    LRDGCO, thanks, I was referring to Dante's offer in post #18. It doesn't look like it from outside, but there are some guns in there! I was asking for feedback on that same beautiful shotgun; nobody had yet recommended the brand. I have made business there in the past and the gentlemen over there seem to know their stuff. I'm certain to go back at some point. I will ask to handle the gun then.

    George P, importing firearms to Canada, wherever from, is not allowed to the individual to the best of my knowledge. Gun dealers can do it, but we the people can't.

    On a side note, not to derail my own thread, ownership of long guns for hunting is kind of reasonably regulated in the rest of Canada since the national long gun registry has been abolished. Québec is going another way, a new registry being created to replace the abolished Canadian registry. Some distinctions with regards to what is a legitimate hunting long gun and what is a very dangerous assault weapon would make some of you laugh to tears, but it is like that. On the other hand, handguns and black rifles are mostly not welcome. I don't own any, it looks to complicated for the fun I would get out of it. More papers needed, use only at a registered gun club, transport and safe storage rules more restricting, that kind of stuff. It is not because I don't use those and don't really care to be able to do so that I don't criticize the so called logic behind all this. I like single shot rifles, break open type, but I am sure I would not dislike full automatic rifles or pistols if I could ever try any, not meaning I would then necessarily go buy one. I own a Browining BAR in .270 Win (a fine rifle), it is not restricted because the magazine only holds four. More than five, it is jail time!
     
  11. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO Member

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    Sorry I missed Post 18. Would have saved some verbiage. Worth checking out for sure. Most of the Turkish guns in my opinion are not suitable for high volume target shooting, but as a game gun, and if Akkar are offer a Lifetime Warranty, definitely worth looking at for under a Grand.
     
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  12. sean m

    sean m Member

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    Would a 28 gauge be a suitable for your needs, might be able to find one easier.
     
  13. George P

    George P Member

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    That's what I was getting at - how hard is it for a dealer in Canada to import used guns from England? There are a LOT of them that are fairly cheap compared to many here.
     
  14. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    I don't know. I suspect they would try to sell me whatever they have on the rack and say it is strictly impossible to import used firearms from abroad, wether true or not. I agree it would be nice to have access to imported used side by side shotguns from England, they have very good and renowned shotgun makers there, but the gun trade around here is not as enthusiastic as it looks to be in the States. It often looks more like a suffering business than a passion (I guess I should specify I am observing this in Quebec, I heard it is a little different in other parts of Canada); I often felt I was disturbing the guy behind the counter with average, normal, honest questions, nothing pointy at all, and, quite frankly, counting a very few exceptions, most of the people behind gun counters I spoke to knew very little about firearms, while a few pretended to be very cognizant, most of them didn't even really know what was behind them. A salesman telling a guy who had obviously never shot a center fire cartridge to buy a cheap synthetic 300 RUM for his first moose hunt and prepare to shoot until the magazine is empty is the kind of stuff I hear when I am in the store... Not "we should privately import great used shotguns from England", sadly.

    As for the 28 gauge suggestion instead of a 410, well, the idea has crossed my mind, I don't think it is a bad idea at all, but I arrived to the conclusion that I want a 410. The wand feeling and very light weight are solid arguments to this regard, as well as is the necessity to better judge opportunities and take even better shots to bag game. I think the 410 ammo is also more abundant or more available than 28 gauge ammunition around here. It is not twelve gauge, but it can be found easily.

    Also, I like to keep things simple (or at the very least try to do so) and foresee within a few years my heir accompanying me on a small game hunt. For now, my choice for his first firearm is a Chiappa double badger in the .22 LR and 410 bore combination offering. I like their sights and the fact they can be used as a single shot .22 at the range for shooting initiation and learning the fundamentals as well as a hand thrown clay pigeon buster at the same place to learn how to point and shoot at moving targets. Inexpensive, light and short, that weapon seems like a good choice for him: he shows a rather frail constitution. Recoil would be minimal in both its rifle and shotgun use. Both barrels would force good judgment and good shooting into a good habit. It is not bought yet, I am waiting to see if he shows any interest into the whole hunting and shooting game before I spend even a cent on this. If I was to buy it and find my son to loose interest afterwards, which would be sad, that gun wouldn't be wasted: I would happily use it sometimes, or it could be sold or given to someone who needs it without a cry. Anyway, as I was mentioning, simplicity in ammunition provision would additionally encourage me to shoot the same shells as he would. If I was to reload 410 ammunition at some point, sharing the same shotshells would be even wiser and could bring him too into reloading.

    So, I stick with this idea of a 410 bore side by side shotgun in my not too distant future.
     
  15. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Would you consider an O/U?
    I have a Yildiz (Academy Sports) .410 I bought for ~$450 several years ago. It’s easily my most used shotgun. Ejectors, choke tubes (5), single selective trigger, no cast off on stock (I shoot long guns left handed).

    I’ve got 2-12ga with 7-barrels, 3- 20ga, a 28ga, and two .410’s. The little Yildiz is far away my most shot shotgun. A friend who once handled it, sold a Browning Citori and bought 3- Yildiz! One for himself, and one for each daughter. His wife kept her Superposed she used for live pigeon competition.

    I’ve got a CZ Golden Pheasant 20ga s/s, but prefer an o/u.
     
  16. George P

    George P Member

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    Good for his wife, keeping at least one well-made shotgun
     
  17. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Oh, they had SEVERAL more!
    Just realized what a deal the Yildiz offered.
    She was/is a world class competitor in live pigeon shooting.
     
  18. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Not opposed to an over and under in principle. Some are quite nice, even if the look is not the same. What would be the benefit motivating the sacrifice of the exquisite appearance and style of the side by side?
     
  19. urbaneruralite

    urbaneruralite Member

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    .410 shells don't have enough payload capacity to go much past 20 yards. A really tightly choked one might do 35 yards if you're very lucky. At that distance, anything it will do can be done with #7 1/2s, and larger pellets are not enough in number to fill in a pattern. Once you start patterning .410s you wonder why any shells are available with shot sizes larger than # 7 1/2. Or at least I did. The point is hunting use of lead .410 shells begins and ends with 3" #7 1/2.

    There are a few Turkish made guns available here, but I don't know about there. If you get a gun with screw in chokes, investigate aftermarket extended choke tubes. If you can settle for a gun with one barrel, it would be better. .410s don't have enough pellets per shell to open up the pattern enough really make up for the difference in point of impact from two different barrels. You'll be looking at FULL and FULL and they won't hit the same place up close. 28 gauge would be better yet. A 28 gauge built on a baby frame is not much different than a .410 in size. A 28 on a 20 gauge frame would be, but not on the baby frames.
     
  20. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Went to the city today, handled a Churchill. Not for me; I just did not feel that gun at all. The chokes protruding at the end are just an ugly thing I will not spend a dime on. Funniest thing happened afterwards: I was handed a second hand Italian one, can't remember the name, something like Sala. I shouldered it, and it was canted. I reshouldered it, it just seemed wrong. I shouldered it wrongsided, and it fit perfectly! It pointed just where I was looking when I opened my eyes and was aligned with the horizon. I asked the salesman if it was a left handed gun, so he checked it carefully and said no, he showed me the angle in the stock.
     
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  21. entropy

    entropy Member

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  22. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    I have had 4 budget doubles. Do yourself a favor and find an older used gun for the same money or buy a better gun new at any price. Gunbroker (maybe not, Gunbroker is US only I think) can be your friend or enemy. The guns I had were a Stevens 411 12ga that was nice but the ejectors stayed broken. It was stamped as a baikal on the water table. The next two were Baikal guns. One 20 long (Remington import?) and one 20 short. I wanted the short but found the 30”? gun used locally in box and well cared for. It was stiff and never eased up. Even when worked hard and dry to help it break in quick. The coach gun was more fun, but the barrel regulation was on par with what you would expect from a team of drunkemonkeys forced into working on the weekend when they all had big plans and now they are trying to hit X completed guns in record time before leaving. At 10 ft the wads were still on the shot and hit over a foot apart. The gun was not useable. Bought new, sold at a considerable loss. The last I had was a stoeger 20. Truthfully not a bad gun, but nothing really nice about it either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  23. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    nice
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  24. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Yes, definitely what I am looking for. However, in that price range, it is simply not a possibility in a predictable future. I will have to go used, wait, and stop buying rifles for a few years.

    Maybe that new taste is a call for discipline I am lacking, maybe that bubble will burst. Sometimes, reality also has to be taken into consideration. :(
     
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  25. entropy

    entropy Member

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    I understand. I have a (not new) taste for Ljutic Trap guns, after having a fellow league member let me shoot his 35 years ago. Have yet to acquire one, kids got in the way, they are grown now, so maybe in the next year or two.....
     
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