A nice 45-70 Coated 405 Load

[BRatigan]

Went to the range to test out a new load for the 45-70. Since I acquired 4#s of Unique last week I decided that it was time to play with reduced loads for easier shooting and to get an idea on accuracy. Distance was 50 yds. from my sandbags.

The 20 shots fired went an average of 1112 fps. GRT calculated 1181 fps, so I'm close. GRT had pressure at 21468 psi. Load ratio was 40.3%, effective efficiency rate was 45.9%, burnt propellant was 100% The extreme spread was 70 fps, and the standard deviation was 19 fps. Pretty consistent. Power factor was 450 on average.

It shot like a 30-30 but my shoulder tells me I shot the gun. Next time I'll just slip on my recoil pad I made for the rifle. With the pad, you could shoot for a week and not feel a thing.

Target is 2.28 c to c. Could be better with peeps but the 1886 sights work pretty well. Barrel is 26 inches. I'll run a batch at 10 grains, often called the universal charge weight for rifles for reduced loads and compare notes. All things considered this load will stay in my book. 13 grains of Unique under an ACME 405 Hi-Tek II coated bullet.

 

[Charlie98]

The extreme spread was 70 fps, and the standard deviation was 19 fps. Pretty consistent.

13 grains of Unique under an ACME 405 Hi-Tek II coated bullet.

Good shooting! If you want to knock down that ES number, muzzle up before shooting... getting that powder back against the primer can help level out ignition... although your SD wasn't so bad.

I was given 15grn Unique under any 405grn cast as the 'universal' Unique load in the .45-70. Out of a Marlin 1895 or my Pedersoli 1885 (32" barrel) I get 1200fps.

I miss my Browning 1886...

 

[BRatigan]

Good shooting! If you want to knock down that ES number, muzzle up before shooting... getting that powder back against the primer can help level out ignition... although your SD wasn't so bad.

I was given 15grn Unique under any 405grn cast as the 'universal' Unique load in the .45-70. Out of a Marlin 1895 or my Pedersoli 1885 (32" barrel) I get 1200fps.

I miss my Browning 1886...

Thank you, sir. I don't think I consciously settled the powder to the rear. The guns attitude was already biased to the rear, but in the future, I'll focus on that. I was just talking to a buddy of mine from yesteryear. He recommended a vegetable fiber mat for a seal over the powder that is .060 thick and a punch .460 from Buffaloarms.com. I'm going to give that a try.I'd like the SD to be in the single digit range if possible, so I'll play more. A ragged hole with 20 shots would be an acceptable goal for this gun at 50.

 

[Charlie98]

He recommended a vegetable fiber mat for a seal over the powder

I can't really recommend any rigid or semi-rigid wad, per se. That's a ringed barrel waiting to happen. Black Powder is different... however, but I don't shoot the Holy Black.

If you really want to get exited about it... put a small tuft of Dacron on top of the powder charge... that's the better solution.

FWIW, I've gotten away from Unique in the .45-70, and even 2400... which I got pretty decent results with, too. I use IMR4198, now. 30grn IMR4198 and that same 405grn bullet is right at 1300fps, and 35grn at 1550fps. I get better case fill and good burn with it. I understand I'm paying the price by having to use twice the powder charge (by weight) but it gives me good results. One powder I haven't fooled with in the .45-70 is IMR4227, but I have in the .348WCF. I got single-digit ES with that load... most likely because, like Unique, it burns completely.

 

[BRatigan]

I agree with the 4198 load. It shoots really well. The puff idea is also appealing. Does the tuff have to be uniform in any way?

 

[Obturation]

I do a fair amount of 45-70 plinking. I had been using trailboss , which was the way to go but I figured out that the starting trapdoor charge of imr4198 gave me very similar recoil characteristics. Imr4198 is great for 45-70 and when you get to the top of modern lever action charge weights things start to get serious .
I've tried various powders but for a 405 grain cast bullet, I'll stick with what I've been doing. Everyone on this forum may turn against me for saying it but I don't really like unique . it can do everything but it can't do anything best.

I'm trying imr4227 for my 300 grain hunting loads I just put together this past weekend but haven't tested yet. Main reason is I couldn't find reliable load data for the specific bullet using imr4198 and I know what imr4227 will do. Just hope it all burns.

 

[Targa]

Put me down for IMR4198 as well. I have been running 31 grains with a 405 grain cast bullet out of my Pedersoli Trapdoor Carbine. It is just a nice, fun load.

 

[AJC1]

I do a fair amount of 45-70 plinking. I had been using trailboss , which was the way to go but I figured out that the starting trapdoor charge of imr4198 gave me very similar recoil characteristics. Imr4198 is great for 45-70 and when you get to the top of modern lever action charge weights things start to get serious .
I've tried various powders but for a 405 grain cast bullet, I'll stick with what I've been doing. Everyone on this forum may turn against me for saying it but I don't really like unique . it can do everything but it can't do anything best.

I'm trying imr4227 for my 300 grain hunting loads I just put together this past weekend but haven't tested yet. Main reason is I couldn't find reliable load data for the specific bullet using imr4198 and I know what imr4227 will do. Just hope it all burns.

Case fill is a loosing battle with unique in 45-70 so no flame suit needed. In pistol cartridges you may be fighting an uphill battle.

 

[Charlie98]

The puff idea is also appealing. Does the tuff have to be uniform in any way?

Not really... all it needs to do is hold the powder back against the primer. You don't have to pack it solid or anything... just a pinch.

Everyone on this forum may turn against me for saying it but I don't really like unique

Case fill is a loosing battle with unique in 45-70

As most of you know, I LOVE me some Unique... But. I'm not a big fan of reduced loads using pistol powders in big volume cases, and that includes Unique. I much prefer an appropriate rifle powder... and for me, that powder is IMR4198. You can substitute H4198, AA5744, or even Reloder 7... they all basically behave the same way in that application.

 

[Bearded Phil]

My preferred load velocity with a 405gr cast out of my Henry is right between 1070-1150 FPS.

With I4198 I get there with between 24.5-26gr and my SD's are typically single digit if not creeping up to the mid teens.

I tried the same thing with I4227 but a load range of 22.7-24.4gr to get to that same velocity range. SD's in that range with I4227 though are usually teens to low 20's.

One of the last things I loaded with commercial cast that I haven't gotten out to test are 405gr cast from BT bullets with I4198, 10rnd each of 24.5, 24.8, 25.1 & 25.4gr.
I think the sweet spot for accuracy is in that 1070-1100 FPS range for these kinds of bullets (2/6/92, Hitek, bevel base) in my rifle when the goal is lower velocity and recoil.

When I load up some of my casts that may be not true anymore but it's where I'm going to start for sure. From my NOE mould my casts drop right at the predicted 396gr range so they're lighter than what I've been shooting plus they're plain base and a softer alloy (range scrap plus 1% 95/5 solder). I'm actually hoping the accuracy increases. Playing with GRT and my historic loads the pressure range is predicted something like 12k PSI max with I4198 in the grain range I've found enjoyable. I can't imagine that hardball alloy commercial casters use plus a bevel base bullet design is obturating that well. And yet I don't really get blow-by or experience terrible accuracy, it's actually pretty good for my shooting. .459" dia must be a good fit for my barrel.

I'm also going to bring N120 into the mix along side I4198. My GRT modeling shows very similar predictions with N120 as I have been getting with I4198 in the same grain range with the exception of lower pressure maxes. Trade off on the stats though is slightly less case fill with N120 but a slightly increased efficiency percentage, a few percent for each category. This was after I entered a bunch of recorded velocity data from my chronograph to adjust a copy of the I4198 powder model to reflect my real life data and then compared the two powders side by side with all the same case, bullet, initial pressure, etc. data.

We shall see. In any case, it's going to be some fun shooting. I love my 45-70, so much so I put it in my avatar .

 

[3Crows]

I think I will stick with a 405 MBC coated 405 with 13.0 grains of Trail Boss for plinking. At least as long as I have some. It shoots very softly and has decent accuracy. I find 30 to 34 grains of H4198 to be a very useful range again using the 405 MBC or Lasercast 405 bullets. The 34 grains is a good hunting load at least to 150 yards for deer/pigs. IMO.

I have been told that H4198 is temperature stabilized and that IMR4198 is not?

 

[dieselchief]

broken record bob suggesting 5744....the most popular 45 70 powder loaded next to black at the gong shoots. easier on the shoulder besides.

 

[Barbaroja]

Not 45-70 but I load imr4198 based on recommendation I got here from @Charlie98 for my 444marlin and as others have suggested, it’s a great powder for lower velocity loads in massive cases like 444 or even bigger 45-70.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Not really... all it needs to do is hold the powder back against the primer. You don't have to pack it solid or anything... just a pinch.






As most of you know, I LOVE me some Unique... But. I'm not a big fan of reduced loads using pistol powders in big volume cases, and that includes Unique. I much prefer an appropriate rifle powder... and for me, that powder is IMR4198. You can substitute H4198, AA5744, or even Reloder 7... they all basically behave the same way in that application.

I too am a Unique fan but as Harry said, “A man’s got to know his limitations.” Unique in a .30-30 works. Unique in a .32-20 is awesome. Unique in a .44-40 is magical. Unique doesn’t belong in a .45-70 - in my opinion. The faster powders like Red Dot, Unique and 2400 with softer lead (BHN 9-10) in some barrels will seal better as the base is upset more rapidly and that can be an advantage. But there’s a whole list of conditions in that statement.
IMR 4227 and 4198 are Gold dust in the Buffalo gun. Highly recommend staying with them.

 

[someguy2800]

I’m going to have to experiment with this again. My go too for 45-70 has been trail boss, but I’ve almost run out and I haven’t seen any for several years.

 

[dh1633pm]

I use a square of toilet paper to hold Unique to the back. A nail head is used to push it down. Had good luck with Unique in the 45-70. I have a recipe that an old timer told me years ago. Still use it.

 

[Charlie98]

I have been told that H4198 is temperature stabilized and that IMR4198 is not?

Yes, H4198 is one of Hodgdon's 'Extreme Rifle' powders... so it is supposedly better with temperatures than the IMR version.

broken record bob suggesting 5744....the most popular 45 70 powder loaded next to black at the gong shoots. easier on the shoulder besides.

AA5744 is a good alternate. For those that want to get as close to BP as they can, while staying smokeless... 5744 is it, and it's old namesake, Shooters World 'Buffalo Rifle,' which, as I understand it, is the old AA5744. Having said that, it does nothing better or worse than IMR/H4198, and probably the others. I've used it... it works, but on the downside, it does leave crap in the barrel. I've found IMR4198 to be much cleaner.

I use a square of toilet paper to hold Unique to the back.

I had forgotten about that one... essentially, the poor man's version of Dacron.

 

[BRatigan]

I think I have to go back to the barrel on this gun. It shoots really well but I got a fair amount of leading when I cleaned the gun, which I really didn't expect at such a low fps. I am going to slug the barrel to see if its tight. None of my levers lead up at reasonable velocities. Some don't lead at 1600 fps let alone in the 1100 fps territory. I am also going to lube the coated bullets for a separate test. If I'm crazy just let me know.

 

[Barbaroja]

I think I have to go back to the barrel on this gun. It shoots really well but I got a fair amount of leading when I cleaned the gun, which I really didn't expect at such a low fps. I am going to slug the barrel to see if its tight. None of my levers lead up at reasonable velocities. Some don't lead at 1600 fps let alone in the 1100 fps territory. I am also going to lube the coated bullets for a separate test. If I'm crazy just let me know.

If I’m shooting cast in a gun(99%of my shooting), I just go right off and slug the bore when I get the gun before I order anything (molds,sizers etc) for it. Usually saves trouble and components as I have to do less experimenting to come up with a good load. Hope you find what your after good luck!

 

[Charlie98]

It shoots really well but I got a fair amount of leading when I cleaned the gun, which I really didn't expect at such a low fps.

I would agree... slug the bore.

The other avenue would be to try another powder. 13grn Unique may not be enough to obturate the base of the bullet... and seal the bore, although my QL graph shows it's around 20K PSI.

 

[AJC1]

I think I have to go back to the barrel on this gun. It shoots really well but I got a fair amount of leading when I cleaned the gun, which I really didn't expect at such a low fps. I am going to slug the barrel to see if its tight. None of my levers lead up at reasonable velocities. Some don't lead at 1600 fps let alone in the 1100 fps territory. I am also going to lube the coated bullets for a separate test. If I'm crazy just let me know.

The length of the barrel seems to make a difference. Pc works good to 24 or so inches and needs a little help in something like a 32" pendersoli.

 

[BRatigan]

My barrel slugs out as .456. Its tight but not a huge problem. I just have to resize the lead to .457 or maybe .458. That should help with the leading. The ACME 405 coated measure at .459. Lyman makes a .457 for my old Lyman Model 45 Lubrisizer. I also found some lead 300s that are .460. I'll play around with it.

 

[ms6852]

I do good with AA5744. This is at 200 yards on my Pedersoli Sharps. Was learning to to use the Vernier Sights. The bullet for size comparison is a 22 magnum.