A question on the laws regarding CCW reciprocity.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

First things first. I’ve not posted or even read THR in a few weeks; short story- I was laid off from my job out of the blue about a month ago and I’ve been expending most of my energies to rectify this situation. Looks as though I’ve missed some interesting discussions and I can see that I have a few hours reading ahead of me to catch up with current events.

Ok then, here’s my question on reciprocity:

Here in Cali, the state Dep. O’ Justice says that you can have up to four handguns on your CCW permit. You have to qualify with them and then they are listed by make, model, caliber and serial number on the permit. Get nailed carrying anything not on your permit and its grounds for revocation of the permit.

I have a California CCW permit that currently has listed on it a Glock 30 .45 and an S&W 637 Airweight .38. So if I’m traveling in Alaska or Arizona or any other state that honors the CA permit, am I limited to the restrictions of the CA permit while in those states? Lets say that I have my G30 with me while visiting my relatives up in Skagway, AK and my beloved Glock goes Tango Uniform. So one of my cousins lends me a spare Glock 19 to carry while I’m there. Am I good to go or am I in violation? California law says that I am breaking the law, but what does Alaska state law say? They honor the California permit but the California permit says I can’t carry anything but those firearms listed on it.

An interesting conundrum isn’t it? Any ideas?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Just happens you chose the worst possible state as your example, because you don't need a permit to carry in Alaska. . . or Vermont.

Just twiggin' ya. Let's make it Texas and you raise an interesting question. Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer (yada, yada). My understanding is that reciprocity or recognition allows you to carry in the other state, but the rules under which you carry are those of the state you are in.

A somewhat similar situation would be states that license drivers younger than most states. Don't know if this even applies any more, as I'm WAAAY past the age where it matters to me, but when I was a lad there were a couple of states that licensed kids as young as 13, IIRC. Don't recall if there may have been restrictions, like maybe daylight only or some such. I'd guess that another state would pretty much have to accept the license as long as the kid followed the regulations in effect where he was driving. If the license was for daylight only, I'd guess that if he were stopped at midnight in a neighboring state it would be construed the same as not having a (valid) license.

Following that admittedly tortuous logic, I would suggest that the same might apply to you. You have a license to carry a Glock 30 and an S&W 637. Seems to me that if you walked around in California wearing a Kimber Ultra-Carry they would say you weren't carrying in accordance with your license, which sounds a lot like another way of saying you don't have a license to carry that pistol. Any other state could view it in the same light. Whether or not they would probably depends on the state, the country, the weather, the political affiliation of the prosecutor, the phase of the moon, and whether or not the investigating officer's wife had a headache last night.

Why take a chance?

 

[Treylis]

In Arizona, it wouldn't matter. Hell, here the laws make it so that even out-of-state concealed-weapon permits work as regular ones: which means they're not just a concealed-handgun--you wanna stuff your broadsword or your folding-stock AK under your coat, go right ahead.

 

[Diggler]

Not a lawyer, but...

When you have a permit from a reciprocal state and you're visiting another state, you have to follow the host state's rules.

For example, just because I can carry in a bar in my home state of PA doesn't mean that I'm allowed to carry there in FL, where it's prohibited.

PA's maximum speed limit is 65. Does that mean that I have to go no faster than 65 while in a 75 when going through North Carolina?

I would think your license licenses YOU to carry a firearm, and your responsibility to the law lies with whatever state you happen to be in.

 

[El Tejon]

It depends.

Depends on what the hosting state's reciprocity law state. Where I am it reads according to the terms of the license. Thus, to carry legally on your Cauleephorneeah license you must carry one of the four guns and are required to wear sandals and say things like "like", "ya know" and "totally awesome."

"Hey, Mr. Hand, I don't need to know anything about shooting or fighting. All I need are some tasty waves, bwaaah."

Maybe the Land of Bears/America's Last Fantasy allows one to carry any old hoglaig that you come by legally so totin' your cousin's piece is okey-dokey???

Where's Wild when you need him. Probably off being grumpy somewhere or wrestling with a bear.

 

[Zach S]

Do you really think AZ or AK would prosecute you for breaking a PRK law? Nevermind, I've heard some PRK liberals are infecting AZ.

I'm no lawyer, but I would think you could carry what you want ouside of your home state, following the other state's laws of course, regardless of what makes/models/serial numbers your permit has on it.

If it worries you that much, get a florida permit as soon as you can. Use it outside of the PRK, and you also get more choices for random destinations should you decide to go on a road trip.

 

[jnojr]

How the hell did you get a CCW in the Bay Area???

 

[Gray Peterson]

Depends on the state. To give you an example.

I moved from Oregon to Washington. Now, Washington law doesn't require me to change my address on my CPL. HOWEVER, there is one particular state that may give me crap about having an out of state address on a WA CPL, and that's Michigan. I decided to change it to an in state CPL.

So again, it depends on the reciprocal laws of the state you are carrying in.

 

[John Ross]

Do not confuse Reciprocity with Recognition.

Missouri recognizes EVERY other state's permits. We have reciprocity with no one.

Have a carry permit from another state and you can carry concealed in MO ANY lawfully possessed weapon: handgun, Bowie knife, sap, ninja throwing star, etc.

Since there are (I believe) no states that have weapon-specific permitting that also recognize ANY other state's permits, the answer to your question is:

You can carry guns not on your permit while in a state that recognizes your permit.

JR

 

[spacemanspiff]

as far as alaska law is concerned, if you have a CCW from your home state, the law states that you may lawfully conceal a handgun on your person.

of course you do have to immediately inform a LEO that you are armed if you are pulled over or otherwise contacted by a LEO in a professional manner.

http://www.dps.state.ak.us/PermitsLicensing/achp/FAQ.asp#NICSCheck

look towards the bottom of that link, the exact question is addressed by our DPS.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Do not confuse Reciprocity with Recognition.

Missouri recognizes EVERY other state's permits. We have reciprocity with no one.

Have a carry permit from another state and you can carry concealed in MO ANY lawfully possessed weapon: handgun, Bowie knife, sap, ninja throwing star, etc.

Since there are (I believe) no states that have weapon-specific permitting that also recognize ANY other state's permits, the answer to your question is:

You can carry guns not on your permit while in a state that recognizes your permit.

JR

Is that a legal opinion, or is it ... like mine ... your best guess as to how it would shake out?

I ask because you are focusing on "recognition." That says the visitor may carry because the second state recognizes his home state permit/license. Seems to me that says the second state would pretty much have to "recognize" that he has a license to carry a spefic Glock 30 and/or a specific S&W 637. According to California, if he isn't carrying one of the two weapons listed on his license, he effectively has no license.

How do you get from that to "You can carry guns not on your permit while in a state that recognizes your permit."?

 

[John Ross]

It's the legal opinion of two gun lawyers I've asked. That said, it hasn't been tested--yet.

I seriously doubt Missouri cops are going to try to enforce the specifics of CA law.

Our law says

571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or

SNIP

4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall
not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

The entire text of the law is at

http://www.house.state.mo.us/bills03/biltxt/truly/HB0349T.HTM

JR

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Hmmmm ...

4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall
not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

While you may be correct that an officer in Missouri wouldn't be overly concerned that a California license is weapon-specific, if it came to the attention of "the authorities" due to the unfortunate circumstance of having to use a concealed handgun for its intended purpose, and the handgun wasn't one of the ones on the permit ... I'll just say that I would prefer not to become the test case. Seems to me it would be very easy for an "anti-" prosecutor to make a case that the permit wasn't "valid" because the permittee failed to adhere to the terms of the permit. End game ==> slam dunk.

I think it's a fascinating question, so I hope you'll pardon me for belaboring it a bit. Going back to my previous motor vehicle analogy, suppose I have a license from California to drive passenger automobiles. No motorcycle endorsement, no CDL (commercial drivers' license). I go to Alabama and rent a motorcycle, get a bit enthusiastic, and attract the attention of a radar ranger. Once he asks for my license, registration and insurance in the ensuing traffic stop, am I or am I not guilty of driving without a license?

After all, I have a license. But the license also says it allows me to operate only passenger automobiles, not motorcycles, not heavy trucks. I think it's pretty clear in this case that I AM guilty of operating a motorcycle without a license. How is the handgun permit any different?

I know you can't answer, because there hasn't been a test case. I just think it demonstrates that it ain't a simple question, and I reiterate that I don't want to become the test case.

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

jnojr- check your pm's.

Guys, thanks for all the feedback. It's looking to be a 'non-issue' really, but like almost all aspects of our sport/hobby, there are gray areas and no one wants to be the 'first test case' that sets precedent in the courts. Incidentally, this question came about when I was talking about visiting a friend out in Oklahoma City and jokingly complained that I wouldn’t be able to carry when I came out to see him. Laughing, he said he’d loan me a piece, but then I got to thinking about it and here we are.

 

[artherd]

Chris- You can get around this by obtaining a Florida CCW, reconised almost everywhere.

To address your issue directly, the key word in the missiouri law posted:

571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or

SNIP

4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall
not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

The entire text of the law is at

http://www.house.state.mo.us/bills0...uly/HB0349T.HTM

The issue here is 'valid concealed carry endorsement'.

I would read that, if your permit was currently 'in-effect' and not 'expired', then missiouri is, in RECIGNITION of that permit, issueing you a temporary de-facto permit to conceal "a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use."

I would read this law to allow you to conceal an AK if you wanted. (this is not legal advice, consult your attorney, etc.)

 

[John Ross]

Since posting, I have asked more attorneys. The general answer is "This is a very interesting issue."

Translation: "You will have to spend a lot of money to find out the actual answer."

Artherd is exactly right: Get a non-resident permit from a state recognized by the the state where you're going to go. Circumvents the whole issue.

JR

 

[Diggler]

Couldn't you write to the Attorney General of the state you'll be visiting and get a determination?