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If the question is which cartridge has the best balance for power, shooting fast, concealing, accuracy, psychological effect, defensible in court, capacity, affordable ammo for practice, availability of ammo, bang for the buck, use by LE and military, ergonomics, use in competition and popularity, then the answer would be elusive.

But if the question is whether the choice of handgun loads affects stopping power, then the answer should be a clear yes. I believe it's undisputed that big game handgun hunters use heavy large diameter bullets of solid construction with velocities around 1100 fps to stop big tough animals.
 
Really do not care about caliber wars, what size bore is better, IDPA champs, Ballistic experts, thousand dollar pistols, and on and on. Stopped thinking about that crap years ago. I just take my 380's and 9mm's and train hard. Had them out Sat. and then again Sun. Aways a few times a week. The 380 for instance, I will work it always, getting faster and faster. Let the naysayers laugh, fine with me. But I would not recommend getting in front of one either. Consistent, frequent, moderate training. Learned that decades ago from my running coach. Even in running it was always what shoe is better, what food is better and so much garbage. The real guys were running twice a day and running hard. The gun world is full of it. Even worse.
Training will trump caliber every time. Let the internet guys worry about the ballistics and stopping power. Just get out and train on a regular basis and then some.
I fear the guy with a 22.cal that trains often much more than a guy with a large bore, thousand dollar gun and spends more time talking about how big holes are better than small holes.
 
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Not according to Fackler

I personally knew Facker. I tested ammo with him at his Wound Ballistics Laboratory at the Presidio of San Francisco. I challenge you to cite a document in which he stated that the temporary cavity produced by a handgun bullet is incapable of damaging soft tissues beyond that which is directly contacted and crushed by the bullet.

What you'll find is that he said the temporary cavity produced by a handgun bullet cannot be relied upon to increase permanent disruption.
 
What you'll find is that he said the temporary cavity produced by a handgun bullet cannot be relied upon to increase permanent disruption.
That's kind of a moronic statement, temporary cavity and pressure wave can't be relied on at rifle velocity. And still doesn't mean it should be dismissed below some arbitrary velocity.
 
Really do not care about caliber wars, what size bore is better, IDPA champs, Ballistic experts, thousand dollar pistols, and on and on. Stopped thinking about that crap years ago. I just take my 380's and 9mm's and train hard. Had them out Sat. and then again Sun. Aways a few times a week. The 380 for instance, I will work it always, getting faster and faster. Let the naysayers laugh, fine with me. But I would not recommend getting in front of one either. Consistent, frequent, moderate training. Learned that decades ago from my running coach. Even in running it was always what shoe is better, what food is better and so much garbage. The real guys were running twice a day and running hard. The gun world is full of it. Even worse.
Training will trump caliber every time. Let the internet guys worry about the ballistics and stopping power. Just get out and train on a regular basis and then some.
I fear the guy with a 22.cal that trains often much more than a guy with a large bore, thousand dollar gun and spends more time talking about how big holes are better than small holes.

These are always interesting discussions to say the least. I don't worry about 'stopping power' much these days either. It is a nebulously defined term (at best) that depends upon who is using it and what their particular agenda is in debates like these.

When it comes down to it, the only things that really matter are how much tissue a given bullet can damage and where that damage is located (shot placement and penetration depth).
 
That's kind of a moronic statement, temporary cavity and pressure wave can't be relied on at rifle velocity. And still doesn't mean it should be dismissed below some arbitrary velocity.

Bullet yaw at centerfire rifle velocities substantially increases temporary cavity size. Likewise a centerfire rifle bullet that expands also increases temporary cavity size. Some of these temporary cavities can be as large in diameter as a volleyball, which even the most elastic tissues will tear and rupture. But a centerfire rifle bullet that passes thru a limb which does not yaw, expand or hit bone will produce a wound that is indistinguishable from that produced by a handgun bullet.

"Pressure wave" is not a wounding mechanism.
 
Placement plus penetration are the keys to your elusive "stopping power".

A bullet must damage tissues critical to immediate survival to reliably produce rapid physiological incapacitation. The bullet must be placed so that its wound track will pass thru vital tissues. Likewise the bullet must penetrate deeply enough to reach and damage these tissues.

That's it in a nutshell. Good post.:thumbup:
 
. But a centerfire rifle bullet that passes thru a limb which does not yaw, expand or hit bone will produce a wound that is indistinguishable from that produced by a handgun bullet.
Well ok then, what are you using to precisely measure wound diameter in soft tissue?
 
Well ok then, what are you using to precisely measure wound diameter in soft tissue?

The first 6-inches of the 147gr .30 caliber FMJ wound profile is virtually identical to the first 6-inches of the 9mm 124gr FMJ wound profile despite the higher velocity:

https://web.archive.org/web/2014060...rmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/M80.jpg

https://web.archive.org/web/2015042...cal.com/images/Wound Profiles/9mm US M882.jpg
M80.jpg

9mm%20US%20M882.jpg
 
I am a fan of two goals when it comes to "stopping" a threat with a handgun:

1. Shot placement. While it seems obvious, a bullet is not magic. No matter what you are shooting, you have to hit central nervous system, cardiovascular organs, or break bones. The effect of hitting each of these systems causes different effects, and length of time between impact and incapacitation of the animal target; be it unconciousness, imobility or death.
2. Bullet diameter. The bigger the bullet the more damage is caused on impact. Velocity in handgun terms seems to lend more advantage to flatter trajectory, than instant stops. Bullet design aids in the intended destruction of the systems pointed out in shot placement. Meplats, hollow points or round nose all act differently upon tissue and bone.
While I am able to shoot larger calibers accurately, not everyone else is. I don't discourage shooters of smaller caliber from carrying for defense, I point out that handguns are not the Hammer of Thor, and attackers, human or animal, might soak up a lot of rounds before stopping their attack. *see shot placement.

JeffG-
Nice summary of your thoughts on shot placement. A recent NYPD shooting goes to the heart of it. The bad guy sustained eight 9mm rounds and lived, the NYPD Detective took one 9mm to the chest and dies, and sadly it was from friendly fire.

Regarding your statement: "While I am able to shoot larger calibers accurately, not everyone else is. I don't discourage shooters of smaller caliber from carrying for defense"
Agree wholeheartedly. Thank you for the encouragement. I'm one who has difficulty shooting larger calibers competently. So I concentrate on shooting the largest caliber I can competently.
 
Look at it like this. Bullet diameter doesn’t really matter, the difference between.356 and .452 is negligible under pressure. Generally the accuracy you have on the range won’t be there in a gunfight so a miss by 3-6” negates the bullet diameter debate by a long shot. Most shooters* have no training, don’t practice much, and can barely keep any rounds center mass under pressure. Those of us** that do practice, many don’t do it under pressure and would be hard pressed to score A hits under pressure. Few of us***(not me) that do practice under pressure and can get good hits while stressed, know that caliber doesn’t really matter.

All the debate over .2” in diameter matters little if you can’t place bullets where they need to go, in sufficient quantity to do the job, before your opponent does the same to you. Under stress, shooting from whatever position you have available, running, ducking, rolling, low light, are nothing like shooting on the static range. Only good hits count, in whatever quantity it takes to stop the threat.

For me personally that means a 9mm minimum, 10 round single stack minimum, at least one spare mag minimum, and a proven quality self defense round designed for your barrel length and proven to work in your particular gun.


*shooters - citizens involved in a shooting.
**us - Joe Q. Public
***us - gun folks that compete or get serious training
 
Geez. Are we still debating this stuff? I'm inclined to agree with above poster. Had a local shooting a few years back, officers from two agencies shot the wrong guy 16 times (combination of .40 S&W and 9mm, both premium LE cartridges). He lived to sue, and be awarded a fabulous multi-million dollar judgement.

Hitting the vital organs (or spine), regardless of caliber/bullet combination, seems to be the ticket.
 
The first 6-inches of the 147gr .30 caliber FMJ wound profile is virtually identical to the first 6-inches of the 9mm 124gr FMJ wound profile despite the higher velocity:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140601135804/http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/M80.jpg

https://web.archive.org/web/20150421183526/http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/9mm US M882.jpg
M80.jpg
9mm%20US%20M882.jpg
Chalk drawings to show what you "think" is happening doesn't answer the question at all, I asked HOW DO YOU MEASURE PRECICLY IN "SOFT" TISSUE.
 
Blunt Trauma Concussion of Spinal Cord as Mechanism of Instantaneous Collapse Produced by Centerfire Rifle Bullet Wounds to the Torso. See - https://web.archive.org/web/20140802090932/http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs28.htm
Nope ain't buying that, first deer I ever shot was a bang flop from a low heart shot, he dropped and never moved, however I had a doe that I actually hit in the spine that bleeted and kicked her front legs for several seconds. I've also seen bang flops from a 45/70 @ well under 2000. So try again.
 
I had this discussion about every time I buy ammunition for my little Commander. When you look at all the charts and the graphs and the ballistic gelatin tests, the 45 ACP is superior to my 38 Super. I will be the first to admit in my dad's or my husband's hands that would be an irrefutable statement. However, I am not my dad and I am not my brother. In my hands a 45 or even a 44 Magnum would be worthless for self-defense. Simply because I am unable to consistently hit a target with either caliber. It stands to reason that if I am unable to hit the target in the rather peaceful atmosphere of the range I have little to no reason to believe my ability would improve in a high stress self-defense situation. With the 38 Super I would have the chance to make at least one hit. And as one of my late uncle's truism states – a 22 in the brain beats a 45 through the window.

Stopping power of a handgun is like everything else in life. It's not the machine it's the operator.
 
The first and most important principle of handgun "stopping power", on which we ALL AGREE by the way, is having a handgun in your possession at the time and place chosen by your adversary. The second commonly understood principle is to be well practiced and competent with your weapon of choice. We could, I suppose, all walk around with Desert Eagles strapped on our belt but that is not practical. Neither does logic seem to dictate that we all pocket .22 rimfire derringers. Somebody once wrote on here that if you want an effective pistol caliber then pick what either the Army or law enforcement uses. Seems reasonable. That would seem to point to 9mm or 40 S&W. Personally, I like my Glock 42 in my Alabama holster stuffed in my right front pocket. It has become second nature to carry, somewhat akin to putting on my watch. That's a good thing (back to principle #1). I will be taking a serious look at the 9mm P-365 when it is available with the manual safety. The safety?- that is a whole other discussion.
 
To me the real discussion is about what we're going to put our time into.

Are we going to agonize over a 1 mm greater wound channel and spend years on that subject discussing it in minute detail?

Or are we going to put our time into making sure that our weapon functions reliably and accurately with the ammunition chosen, with it being some pistol that we'll carry every day and making sure that the projectile won't go through our intended target and kill/injure someone else?

Just buy some ammo that's reliable and accurate, something that reliably opens up and just occasionally scan new advances as they're reported.

Training trumps hardware.
 
I don't worry about this too much.

I don't even put all that much credence in the Holy Grail of Opinions by People Who've Shot People.

Why? Because People Who've Shot People are working from a universally small sample size in terms of number of shootings, shooting dynamics, firearms, and calibers. People Who've Shot People have anecdotal evidence at best.

Look at the Marshall and Sanow data. Why is it so flawed? Because they're trying to compare things that really aren't readily comparable and have too many unknowns to quantify.

SharpDog said:
A Reasonable Discussion of Stopping Power

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh man pull the other one, it's got bells attached! There's never been such a discussion on a gun board!

Browning said:
Are we going to agonize over a 1 mm greater wound channel and spend years on that subject discussing it in minute detail?

Well, yes. That's why we have gun discussion forums.
 
Well, yes. That's why we have gun discussion forums.
To me one or two posts on a discussion forum doesn't exactly equate to 'agonizing'. If it does to you feel free to disagree :shrug.

It's definitely advantageous to keep up with current bullet technology. I'm just not going to post on hundreds of threads and create dozens of graphs on the subject.

I'm more interested in driving to the range and making sure that said ammo functions in my pistol and that it's accurate.

Gel tests (while not the end all-be all) give people an idea about whether they'll open up and perform consistently and bonded projectiles mean that they'll generally hold together (instead of the bullet jacket getting plucked out of sweat pants by the EMT's).
 
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