A Tale of Two Marlins (.44 Magnum versus .45 Colt)

[Old Stumpy]

Recently I bought 2 new Marlin 1894 rifles, based on being pleasantly surprised at how much Remlin quality had improved. Both rifles had nice walnut with a matte finish, excellent fit and finish inside and out, and worked great. The barrels were on straight and the dovetails and sights were mounted great. Every screw head was perfect and the guns functioned great. The trigger pills were both on the heavy side though. Both have Ballard rifling with a 1:38" twist.
The first, a .45 Colt Cowboy, proved to be very accurate at my initial 50 yard sighting in. With American Eagle 225 grain standard velocity soft points, it grouped around 1 1/2" with the marbles factory iron sights, even with a very fuzzy sight picture with my old eyes. I am confident that at 100 yards, it will shoot quite well with this ammo or with .454" lead 250 grain bullets, even with the slow twist common to old .44-40 rifles and 200 grain bullets.

The second rifle, a standard .44 magnum 1894, shoots poorly, using 240 grain Hornaday XTPs and a stout load of 2400, even though the velocity must be in excess of 1500 FPS. I am getting about 3 1/2" groups at 50 yards with the open sights. The problem being that the groove diameter slugs at .4315" and the Hornaday bullets are .430". The bullets don't tumble even with these undersized bullets, so some obturation is taking place. But not enough.
This sorry state of affairs is pretty common these days with .44 magnum rifles. Makers are following a SAAMI spec for rifles which specifies a .431" groove diameter (+ or - .001" I believe).
The reason for same is to reduce pressures in the concern that lever actions are lacking in the strength needed to withstand really heavy loads.

The thing is that I bought the .44 magnum to be used with heavier loads, and with factory JSP bullets or with hard cast at around 240 grains. To get the potential accuracy from this rifle I would need to have a mold made that drops .433" bullets, which may or may not result in a cartridge which chambers okay or not at all. Measuring fired cases with a dial caliper results in an internal measurement of .432", which is about as large as I would want to go, to allow proper spring back of fired cases. And of course there are no .432" diameter factory JSP bullets readily available.

Since I believe that the .45 Colt Cowboy will shoot well with any load from standard velocity up to .44 magnum class hand loads, and will I'm sure handle cast bullets of .454" quite well, the .44 magnum 1894 is going to have to find a new home. I don't need a fussy rifle.

 

[mcb]

SAMMI Spec for 44 Mag

Pistol:
Bore: .417
Groove: .429
Min Area: .1405 in^2

Rifle:
Bore: .424
Groove: .431
Min Area: .1435 in^2

The SAAMI tolerance on those diameters if +.004/-.000, most manufacture are going to hold +.002/-.000 if not tighter. IIRC 44 Mag is the only cartridge in SAAMI collection of cartridges that has different specs between pistol and rifle. That is sort of interesting in its own right. The different in bore diameter is far greater than the difference in groove diameter.

Before you give up on the 44 have you tried some other powders and bullets? I personally am using IMR Hi-Skor 800x under a 240gr XTP. It is a bit fast for a carbine and thus does not benefit as much from the longer barrel (compared to the slower 2400 or H110) but I get great accuracy from 240gr XTP from my 44 Carbine. The faster powder might generate enough additional setback to get the bullet to obturate better in the barrel and thus increase accuracy.

 

[Old Stumpy]

Before you give up on the 44 have you tried some other powders and bullets? I personally am using IMR Hi-Skor 800x under a 240gr XTP. It is a bit fast for a carbine and thus does not benefit as much from the longer barrel (compared to the slower 2400 or H110) but I get great accuracy from 240gr XTP from my 44 Carbine. The faster powder might generate enough additional setback to get the bullet to obturate better in the barrel and thus increase accuracy.

I owned a JM Marlin stainless carbine around 2007 which shot great at 100 yards using 270 grain JSP Speer Gold Dots, using a lesser powder charge of 17 grains of 2400. I never did slug the bore because it shot well, and I didn't own it that long. I had read that Speer bullets obturated better, so perhaps this is why.
I have enough powder on the shelves to last me a long time, so I am reluctant to buy more.
But, since I do have another box of 100 bullets, I might go ahead and give it a try.
Thanks for the advice.

I looked at the burn chart in my Lyman manual and noticed that Herco is even faster than 800X, and since it is used for magnum handgun and I have 3 lbs, I may give that a try. If not then maybe 800X.
At the same time that I was using 2400 loads I was also using Blue Dot loads with the same results. I was surprised to see that Blue Dot has practically the same burn rate as 2400, so perhaps that's why.
I wonder what the factory loads use? They are probably loaded more with revolver performance in mind, so maybe they use the faster powders as well.

 

[greyling22]

As I recall, the problems with those 2 Marlin's is the 45lc had an oversized chamber and the 44mag had too slow a twist rate for heavy bullets. Unless Remington has fixed those issues.

 

[Old Stumpy]

As I recall, the problems with those 2 Marlin's is the 45lc had an oversized chamber and the 44mag had too slow a twist rate for heavy bullets. Unless Remington has fixed those issues.

Same twist. It works fine for 270 grain JSP bullets in my experience as long as the bullet and barrel groove diameter fit well.
My .45 Colt Cowboy shoots well with standard velocity 225 grain factory JSP loads, so I don't foresee any problems with 250 grain bullets.

 

[Charlie98]

See, I made that very poor snap judgement on a JM .45 Colt 1894 I bought. It gave me shotgun-like patterns with my standard load of 8.0grn Unique under a 255grn cast Keith bullet... I was furious and because I didn't need yet another problem child... I quickly traded it off. Dumb move.

Work with your .44, try a few different bullets, whisper sweet nothings in it's ear... something will come of it yet.

 

[Mullo98]

Sorry to hear about your rifle. I’m gonna jump on the bandwagon and say you should experiment more before trading it off.

 

[Riomouse911]

I rarely find a load that shoots great right off the bat, even with known accurate loads in one or more of my guns. I’ll third the recommendations that you try a few loads with different bullets/powders/charge weights to find the one it likes best.

I saw a few listings for .431 diameter .44 bullets, both cast from a few sellers and Everglades lists a JSP 240 gr bullet.

If it resists everything, then send it packing.

 

[Old Stumpy]

See, I made that very poor snap judgement on a JM .45 Colt 1894 I bought. It gave me shotgun-like patterns with my standard load of 8.0grn Unique under a 255grn cast Keith bullet..

My .45 Colt 1894 shoots as poorly as the .44 magnum one with .452" / 250 grain hard cast bullets and 8.2 grains of Universal. Basically the same load. that you were using. That wasn't a surprise since generally a cast bullet needs to be .002" over groove diameter to shoot well.
But, I had the bullets on hand, so...
But, it shoots tight groups at 50 yards with American Eagle standard velocity 225 grain JSP. (around 850 FPS, same as the cast bullet load)
The thing is that the bore in the .45 Colt is .452", like it's supposed to be, and I know that loading either .454" cast bullets or .452" JSP bullets is going to give me excellent accuracy. And, I can increase the velocity a bit to get better 100 yard groups with the 1:38" twist if need be.

The .44 Magnum is another matter. With a .4315" bore it renders all jacketed bullets undersized and the .430" Hornaday XTPs are shooting poorly, even with stout loads of 2400 and Blue Dot obturating the bullets slightly.
But, as mcb suggested I will try faster burning powders like Herco and 800X. Perhaps a more rapid kick in the pants will obturate the XTP more before it engages the rifling.
Also, even if I can only use a maximum .432" bullet, it should definitely obturate enough for good accuracy if I cast it fairly soft.
As I understand it, a lot of .44-40 rifles had oversize bores and still shot well way back when with the soft factory lead bullets of the day.

 

[Charlie98]

Well, my problem was I wasn't driving the bullet fast enough, that and possibly bullet size. I just didn't take the time to line my ducks up before giving up.

One other option, which I'm sure you are aware of, is just forgoing jacketed bullets and going cast. I use the Cast Performance 250grn gas checked bullet in my .41 Magnum 1894, with H110 as fast as 1700fps, without problems. If it doesn't fall over after getting hit with one of those, I'm in trouble anyway.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I too bought a Marlin .44mag last year. It too, exhibits identical inaccuracy to yours.
The barrel has lots of chatter marks, and is rough as a cob. I’ve tried a plethora of different combinations of jacketed and cast bullets of various sizes. I’ve tried hand lapping and fire lapping. No help. I’ve tried tweaking the forend, trigger work, still no joy.

If it didn’t feed .44spl so well, and manages “minute of soda can” at 50yds, I’d dump it. The Lee 240gr SWC-TL powder coated is just too fun to shoot. I load it over ~5.0gr of HP38.
It currently wears a “Ace in the hole” base and taller front sight.
Neat range toy, but too poor of a shooter to hunt with. If Marlin could fix it, I’d send it back, but I doubt they can. It’s a shame, as I can buy a MOA AR15 barrel for ~$50...

 

[Old Stumpy]

The barrel has lots of chatter marks, and is rough as a cob.

My bore looks about as good as the bore in the .45 Colt Cowboy, so I guess that I will try a few more things. Like I said I can use a maximum size of a .432" cast bullet based on the fired cases, which will fill the grooves, even if it isn't .433" or .434". And if I keep the velocity to around 1300 FPS it should attempt to obturate and press hard into the bore.