There are many companies that ban guns on their property as a condition of employment or visiting. Many also have conditions regarding allowed searching of your vehicle. But, here is a legal question. What if a company searches your car and all they find is a small locked box in the trunk? Can they use destructive means to access said box? Can they force you to open it? Can you just say thats an old empty locked box? Can they go all border patrol and start cutting open your seats, dashboard, tires etc. in their search?
? about guns in cars on company property
- Thread starter Harvster
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I am pretty sure if they damaged your personal property by any means, then you could hold them liable for the damages.
The 4th amendment applies to everyone, not just to law enforcement.
The 4th amendment applies to everyone, not just to law enforcement.
Actually, the 4th applies to governmental searches, not private companies.
There is no way I can think of that you can use a 4th Amendment violation against your employer unless your employer uses what they find as a method of getting the police to arrest you and you can prove that they were acting as agents of the police.
There is no way I can think of that you can use a 4th Amendment violation against your employer unless your employer uses what they find as a method of getting the police to arrest you and you can prove that they were acting as agents of the police.
Two way street. You may agree to consent to a search of your vehicle as a condition of employment. If you refuse you are no longer employed. The employer has no right to destroy your personal property in searching after you withdraw your consent. You may use reasonable force to stop the destruction of your property. You must leave if required to do so, however, or be charged for trespassing. We went over a long thread on this one a while back, and I'm not budging from my position that personal property is personal property and that employment is a mutual agreement. If one or the other party withdraws from the agreement, it's no longer valid.
No 4th amendment prohibition applies, but just because my vehicle is on another's property (especially a parking area) gives them no right to damage it to satisfy their curiosity. In most jurisdictions this is called burglary of a motor vehicle and results in criminal penalties in addition to civil liability. Niceties of timing aside, if an employer asked to search my vehicle, he would get a "not in this lifetime" and if the issue were pressed, an immediate resignation or they could fire me. If they pressed the issue and tried to open my vehicle by force, I would use reasonable force to stop the burglary in progress and file a civil suit for damages as well as criminal charges. The employer has no more right to search your vehicle than a friend in whose driveway you may be parked while visiting their house. You are on the property with permission. When you no longer have permission, all they can do is ask you to leave and call law enforcement if you refuse to leave. You do not leave your rights at the door when you walk onto private property. Likewise, you have no right to your job if you choose to terminate the mutual agreement by refusing to allow the search.
You are always free to withdraw consent, subject to the terms of the agreement. There is no magical "continuing consent" that any party, private or government, can take advantage of. If you consent to a search of your vehicle by a law enforcement officer you may withdraw that consent at any time and he or she is required to halt the search. In this case, the penalty is that nothing found after you withdraw consent is admissible in court. If you withdraw your consent to search from an employer, he or she no longer has a right to continue and to do so constitutes a crime. Don't let anybody tell you any different. Stand up for your rights or you don't have any.
No 4th amendment prohibition applies, but just because my vehicle is on another's property (especially a parking area) gives them no right to damage it to satisfy their curiosity. In most jurisdictions this is called burglary of a motor vehicle and results in criminal penalties in addition to civil liability. Niceties of timing aside, if an employer asked to search my vehicle, he would get a "not in this lifetime" and if the issue were pressed, an immediate resignation or they could fire me. If they pressed the issue and tried to open my vehicle by force, I would use reasonable force to stop the burglary in progress and file a civil suit for damages as well as criminal charges. The employer has no more right to search your vehicle than a friend in whose driveway you may be parked while visiting their house. You are on the property with permission. When you no longer have permission, all they can do is ask you to leave and call law enforcement if you refuse to leave. You do not leave your rights at the door when you walk onto private property. Likewise, you have no right to your job if you choose to terminate the mutual agreement by refusing to allow the search.
You are always free to withdraw consent, subject to the terms of the agreement. There is no magical "continuing consent" that any party, private or government, can take advantage of. If you consent to a search of your vehicle by a law enforcement officer you may withdraw that consent at any time and he or she is required to halt the search. In this case, the penalty is that nothing found after you withdraw consent is admissible in court. If you withdraw your consent to search from an employer, he or she no longer has a right to continue and to do so constitutes a crime. Don't let anybody tell you any different. Stand up for your rights or you don't have any.
Interesting. Yet private individuals and organizations can be found at fault for violating OTHER protected rights, such as those dealing with housing and employment.
Simple answer is don't park your vehicle on company property or that which the company claims dominion over. Not an option for all unfortunately.
A former employer of mine had this policy. I parked next door, just off the property. So did a few other people.
Since no one else has brought this up I will. I was the OP of the big thread on this a while back and I got myself into that position ( company hassels over firearms) because I let ONE PERSON know that I had a gun in my car.
Here's what I took as the best advice from that thread.
No they can't search your vehicle but if searching the vehicle was a condition of your employment, they can fire you if you refuse the search
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I LEARNED:
tell NO ONE at work that you have a firearm in the car. Do not discuss firearms at work period what you do in your off time is no ones business but yours.
If you follow those two rules it is unlikely that your employer will ever even ASK to search your vehicle.
Here's what I took as the best advice from that thread.
No they can't search your vehicle but if searching the vehicle was a condition of your employment, they can fire you if you refuse the search
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I LEARNED:
tell NO ONE at work that you have a firearm in the car. Do not discuss firearms at work period what you do in your off time is no ones business but yours.
If you follow those two rules it is unlikely that your employer will ever even ASK to search your vehicle.
hanno
Member
You can have a firearm in you car at work in Minnesota An employer cannot prohibit it. Minn. Stat. sec. 624.714, subd. 18(c).
In five years, this provision has caused no problem for any employer.
In five years, this provision has caused no problem for any employer.
I guess the point of my original question is more about the limitation of a search. If I agree to a search either verbally at the time or in an employment contract is that unlimited? Could the company take my car apart and look in the gas tank because I have consented? Here's another question. What if I have a box that is sealed has a stamp on it or has already been to the post office and is addressed to someone else. If it is in my car is that subject to being opened? I believe legally it's not mine and I can't give consent for such an item.
That's where it gets sticky. In the case of a search warrant the place to be searched and the items being searched for must be described. What this means in practical terms is that if you were looking in someone's car for a stolen 19" TV set, the glove compartment would be out of bounds for search since you logically wouldn't expect to find the TV there. In a general "consent" to search with an employer, those limitations don't exist except for the reasonable limitation of not damaging your property or rendering it unusable.
I think that would definitely fall into the "unreasonable" category. Anything more than a quick check of the interior of the car would likewise be unreasonable and cause for civil action. If there were a locked box in the trunk, you could simply say you lost the key. They have no right to pry or cut it open without your consent, and with no proof of what's in the box they'd be on shaky ground trying to make your refusal to let them damage your property grounds for dismissal. They might still fire you anyway, but you'd have some avenue for relief.
I'd say no, but I'm not sure. Bottom line, they aren't the Gestapo. They can't imprison you or fine you for not letting them search. They can terminate your employment and ask you to leave, but they still have to respect your control over your personal property. They might take the attitude of "we're doing what we want to, take us to court." If that's the attitude then I wouldn't want to work there anyway and I'd use reasonable force to protect my property. In the case of suspected theft by you, they need to summon law enforcement who can then get a search warrant, but even then there has to be sufficient PC for LE to get the warrant.
IANAL, YMMV, but standing up for your rights is always a good thing.
In the case of a consenual search by a private company they have as much ability to search as you let them have.
It's a private organization. They have no legal right to search your car other then whatever consent you grant them to do so.
If you say, "Stop," when they start taking the car apart, for instance, then they'd have to stop.
Now, if your giving consent to search is a requirement for your employment, then you need to decide when "enough is enough" and when you'd stop any search, even at the risk of losing your job.
They can say, "You must let us take the car apart as a condition of this search as a condition of your employment" and you have to decide whether or not to allow it or whether to risk losing your job.
So, they could take your car completely apart, if you let them, and if you haven't told them to "Stop" before then.
This does not apply to .gov searchs on Federal property or LEO searches.(Although I believe you can rescind consent to a consenual search with LEO as well)
I would not hand my keys over to any company I work for any reason. If they asked me for the keys to my car so they could search it, I would say goodbye! This applies the same as if my car is empty or has a trunk full of assault rifles and dope. No one other than a cop with a reason will search my car. I just won't put up with that.
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