ACTIVISM: Ask Remington to produce 20 gauge managed recoil buckshot and slugs

[Fred Fuller]

Lots of folks have been looking at the possibility of using a 20 gauge shotgun as a home defense firearm lately. It's a great idea- but the biggest drawback IMHO is the lack of genuine reduced recoil loads in 20 gauge that are suitable for home defense. There are some great Youth model and Junior model shotguns available in 20 gauge now- but recoil in these lighter weight guns can be punishing when fired with full house or magnum 20 gauge buckshot or slug loads, which are essentially the only projectiles really suitable for home defense.

IMHO we really need to push Remington to produce managed recoil 20 gauge buckshot and slug loads suitable for smoothbore shotguns. If enough people contact the company asking for them, it can be made to happen.

So- please write a short, polite note to Remington at corporate headquarters and let them know that you'd be interested in seeing these loads added to their ammo lineup. The address is:

Remington Arms Company, Inc.
870 Remington Drive
P.O. Box 700
Madison, NC 27025-0700

I was assured that letters would have more impact than phone calls, which is why I suggest writing rather than calling.

Thanks,

lpl/nc

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ETA: Low(er?) recoil 20-gauge ammo currently available from Remington:

http://www.remington.com/products/am...buckhammer.asp

Managed-Recoil™ Buckhammer™ Lead Slugs
Index No. Gauge Shell Length Slug Wt. Velocity
RL20LSS.....20 .........2 3/4".....7/8 oz.....1275

Only problem with the Buckhammer is that it isn't really intended for smoothbores- and we need a Foster type low recoil load that will work well out of a smoothbore barrel.
=============================

http://www.remington.com/products/am...ot/express.asp

Express Buckshot
Index No. Gauge Shell Length Velocity (ft/sec@3ft) Shot Size Pellet Count
20B3..........20...........2 3/4"....................1200.............#3 Buck..........20

I know this is in the velocity range for 12 gauge reduced recoil buckshot loads-- is anyone familiar enough with this load to comment on its felt recoil in relation to magnum 20 gauge loads?

 

[40SW]

I appreciate your sentiment and much of what you propose makes sense, but I am unsure how receptive a behemoth like Remington is to the layperson.
So I am unsure how many layers of bueracracy would have to be raised to get through to them. I think our best bet would be to concentrate on more receptive companies like Hornady. I am not saying that smaller is better necessarily, but why limit it to Remington exclusively?

 

[Fred Fuller]

Frankly I see no reason why this appeal cannot be industry-wide as much as limited to just one company. I'd say you should feel free to contact Hornady, as well as Remington- or Federal, Winchester, Fiocchi or any other company in the ammunition business you'd like. If you have it/them handy, please post the address(es) of your favorite ammo supplier to this thread.

Remember that Remington is 'under new management,' having been recently acquired by Cerberus Capital. I am assured that the company is VERY interested in hearing from consumers in regard to products they'd like to see the company produce. In fact, any letters to the address above regarding consumer requests/interests will be re-routed straight to corporate management.

lpl/nc
===============

http://www.remington.com/library/press/2007/2007-2.asp
Press

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


Remington Arms Readies for 3rd Century of Business by
Entering into Definitive Agreement for Sale

Transaction Positions Company to Drive Manufacturing and Marketing Initiatives for
Growth & Expansion

MADISON, N.C., April 5, 2007 – Remington Arms Company, Inc. the only manufacturer of both firearms and ammunition for Hunting, Law Enforcement/Security, Government & Military applications in the United States, announced that it will be acquired by an affiliate of Cerberus Capital Management, L.P. as part of a definitive agreement between Cerberus and RACI Holding, Inc. for an estimated value of $370 million (which includes the assumption of all of Remington Arms Company, Inc.'s approximate $252 million of funded indebtedness related to the Revolving Credit Facility, 10.5% Senior Subordinated Notes due 2011 and other indebtedness as of such date) before transaction related fees and expenses.

The transaction will strengthen Remington’s ability to grow its leadership position in shotguns, rifles and ammunition in the United States and provides additional capital to further develop its market presence Internationally.

Tommy Millner, CEO of Remington said “This transaction is an acknowledgment of the Remington tradition, its strong brand, and the excellent products built over 191 years through innovation and by our dedicated employees. Further, this new partnership signals our intent to continue the path of enhancing our production capabilities and product offerings, in order to further grow our presence domestically and internationally.

Remington’s extensive and all encompassing line of Shotshell, Center fire, Rimfire and Handgun Ammunition offerings is based on decades of ballistic innovation providing products under the Remington and UMC brands to customers around the world. For decades Remington has remained the #1 producer of Shotguns and #1 Producer of Rifles for US Domestic sales according to published BATF records.

Said Millner, “This agreement will also fuel the Research & Development of products that offer solutions to the needs of our customers worldwide, and provide further value to the user, whether hunting waterfowl with our new 105CTI Titanium receiver based shotgun or fighting terrorism as a member of our Armed Forces, with our M24SWS Sniper Weapon System (also used by many International Law Enforcement Agencies and Militaries).”

“We look to the future with great optimism in terms of enhanced sales and marketing worldwide and additional new business development, while we continue to focus on building into our products the quality and reliability that has benefited our customers for close to 200 years.” stated Millner.

Credit Suisse Securities (USA) LLC acted as financial advisor to Cerberus with respect to its acquisition of Remington, in addition to providing a financing commitment in support of the acquisition.

The company expects the transaction to close in June 2007.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Model 870™ Express® Synthetic 7-Round

http://www.remington.com/products/f...l_870/model_870_express_synthetic_7-round.asp

Model 870™ Express Synthetic Features

Superior design and inherent strength of America’s favorite pump shotgun, the Model 870™
Available in 12- and 20-gauge
Magazine capacity is seven 2 3/4" or 3" shells
==========================

Model 870™
20-Gauge Express® Synthetic 7-Shot With Knoxx® SpecOps™ Stock

http://www.remington.com/products/f...exclusives/model_870_express_7-shot_20-ga.asp

Model 870™ Express® 7-Shot 20-Gauge Features

18", 20-Gauge Cylinder bore bead-sighted barrel

2-shot magazine extension (for a total of 7-shot capacity)

Non-glare matte black finish with black synthetic stock

Factory installed sling swivel studs in magazine clamp and butt stock

Knoxx® SpecOps™ stock

Stock is fully adjustable for LOP

Shoots both 2 3/4" and 3" magnum loads
==========================
Don't see any mention of the 870 Express Junior- 20 gauge, 18 3/4" VR RemChoke barrel, 12" LOP laminated stock (also available in pink). Or the older 870 Youth (20 gauge, 21" VR barrel w. RemChoke, 13" LOP stock). Either of these would be great candidates for an HD shotgun, with more suitable loads...

lpl/nc

 

[fixyurgun]

I have the remington 5/8 oz slugs in my 20 ga. the recoil is about 1/2 of the 3/4 oz slugs. this is remington brand ammo. Haven't bought any in a few years , they haven't discontinued it have they? jim

 

[ArmedBear]

Uh, Remington probably would be responsive if enough people ask. They want to sell ammo, and if you look at their line, clearly they want to hit a lot of market niches.

That said, #3 buckshot -- what Remington uses in their 20 Gauge buckshot loads -- is .25" in diameter. It weighs about 24 grains.

Going slower than the 1200 fps of the standard 20 Gauge buckshot load, it's got the ballistics of a .22 Short.

Sure, it wouldn't recoil much, but do you want to hit a knife-wielding rapist in a leather jacket with a bunch of .22 Shorts? What's he gonna do, laugh so hard he'll be unable to continue the attack?

Also, isn't the SpecOps a sprung stock to absorb recoil?

 

[asknight]

I thought a full-house 20ga load WAS a "reduced recoil" load!
Then there's the 28 and .410...

 

[Robert Hairless]

Good idea and worth suggesting to several majors.

 

[ArmedBear]

Robert, et al. what do you do with the fact that the ballistics of a load lighter than the existing 20 Gauge 1200 fps #3 buck round makes it not worth shooting?

Why not get a 12 Gauge and shorten the stock, or use a collapsible stock? The reduced-recoil 12 is still worth using.

Why the obsession with having a smaller tube? I'm all for smaller gauges for bird hunting -- too many people are lugging around 12 Gauges for no reason. But what's the benefit to shooting a gun with a smaller bore, for defense?

A 20 Gauge isn't really appropriate for large buckshot.

 

[MCgunner]

I thought a full-house 20ga load WAS a "reduced recoil" load!

Exactly. I find the 20 count number 3 buck in 2 3/4" is mild compared to 12 gauge 00. My wife can even shoot it. The 2 3/4" Remington slugs are no where NEAR as hard kickin' as 12 gauge 2 3/4" slugs, and I'm shooting 'em out of a quite light weight 20" coach gun. I've fired a few slugs out of a rather light side by side 12 and, well, I think a 375 H and H is lighter recoil. I liken the experience to shooting an express rifle. I was pointing near 12 o'clock after the shot each time and my shoulder didn't appreciate it even though I only fired a few rounds.

 

[zinj]

Remington makes 1/2oz (at 1800 FPS) 20 gauge slugs that recoil no more than a 7/8oz target load. Even if there isn't "Reduced Recoil" printed on the box, they do just that.