Activism In Support or Against Private Business

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Two separate issues mixed, again, here.

No, you clearly stated that YOU WILL carry onto private property where the owner's wishes are clearly posted against guns, in your 11:34 AM post yesterday, point #2.

My point about felons being denied gun "rights" has nothing to do with purchasing, or carrying, or legally procuring firearms: it is the most clear example of firearms buying/collecting/shooting/carrying being a privelage that CAN be lost.

Similar to voting, or driving a motor vehicle, or speaking your mind, these privelages can be taken away by the authorities and the Social Doctrine that empowers them. (Yes, that's the Social Doctrine some goofball said I would not discuss?)

Carrying on private property, where the property owner has clearly and legally posted that they do NOT want firearms, puts me/all at risk of prosecution by the local Authority's discretion. All the slogans in the world about ..."judged by 12 than carried by 6." are NOT going to change the mind of a liberal DA, or Deputy, or Constable.

Way to go Starbucks for agreeing to meet store Policy, with Local Laws, where this whole debate began. Anybody got a link to their press release discussing the results?

So, do you believe that convicted felons have gun "rights"?


And, what are your ideas about private property? How can you NOT manage the privacy on YOUR property, and let others dictate/boycott your private decisions?
 
Two separate issues mixed, again, here.

No, you clearly stated that YOU WILL carry onto private property where the owner's wishes are clearly posted against guns, in your 11:34 AM post yesterday, point #2.
But the points you are mixing up are that of carrying where it is against the property owner's wishes and carrying where it is illegal. That is two separate issues in many/most places. (Those two factors might overlap in your state -- I don't know.)

Carrying on private property, where the property owner has clearly and legally posted that they do NOT want firearms, puts me/all at risk of prosecution by the local Authority's discretion. All the slogans in the world about ..."judged by 12 than carried by 6." are NOT going to change the mind of a liberal DA, or Deputy, or Constable.
Ok, then I must assume that's because your local laws back up the property owner's signage or wishes with the force of law -- i.e. immediate arrest and prosecution for being caught violating that policy.

Here in PA, as in many other states, that just ISN'T SO. On the off chance the owner or his representative discovers my concealed firearm they may ask me to leave. That's it. And I must oblige, or THEN I could face arrest for trespass. But no criminal charge attends being simply caught in violation of that policy, sign, or wish.

And, what are your ideas about private property?
They are varied and complicated. From a practical standpoint, they are whatever THE LAW says they are.

How can you NOT manage the privacy on YOUR property, and let others dictate/boycott your private decisions?
You're throwing around terms and issues again as if they were identical or equivalent when they are not.

Privacy? That's a wholly different question than anything we've been discussing here. Kind of hard to picture why you've included it.

(And I am concerned that you've included it as a dodge or red herring to extend your argument.)

As for "dictate/boycott" my private decisions? Not the same thing. No one (except the law/court) may dictate my actions or decisions. A boycott is not the same thing as dictating a course of action. It is merely a method of persuasion. A transactional arrangement between two people/entities with (more or less) equal rights. I can't FORCE Starbucks to allow me to carry my weapon -- with their knowledge and approval -- into their store. I can tell them that unless they do, I won't spend my money with them. If they want my money, they need to agree to my request. If they don't agree to my request, they don't get my money. They don't HAVE to have my money -- and don't HAVE to care about my opinion. I make my request, they decide whether to oblige. But I can express myself to them in the only way that they even remotely could care about. ($$$)

I am not violating their rights in ANY way. I'm expressing my opinion and spending my money where I choose.

Its a variation of the same sort of transactional relationships we have with every business (and other people) every day. I can tell McDonald's that I will patronize their business if they'll allow free refills on drinks, and have automatic opening bathroom doors. If they provide those services/accommodations, I'll spend my money with them. If they won't/don't, I'll spend my money somewhere that does. No one's rights are being violated.

Don't they have the RIGHT to refuse my demands? Sure! Absolutely! But no one can make me spend my money there, either. All free will decisions, in response to real-world inputs.
 
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Ah yes, sorry, misread your state's "horse and carriage" laws. :D


Our state has specifically stated penalties for carrying where signage has been legally posted. (Disappointingly, Buffalo Wild Wings is one of them.)


...and here is where a blanket interpretation of 2A can lead to forfeiture of
2A privelages. Yes, I am sticking with 2A being a privelage, but of course I'm from the land where politicians don't want us legally carrying firearms. :banghead:
 
No, it's not a dodge or a red herring: The Supreme Court has ruled that Corporations are "individuals". People, with the decision making rights of an individual and their own self-determination as such. Though open for public business, such as a Starbucks is for coffee customers, it is legally considered a private business wherein said privacy MAY include/exclude firearms carry.

Starbucks may have very well gone the other direction with their policy decision, and still could, without legal repercussions. However, if a legally carrying individual goes into that business where legally posted, the legal repercussions exist in many states against the CCW person. That is not a matter of my opinion, personal theory, or interpretation-it's the law!

We have the best set of checks and balances on the planet to change said Laws. Decide. Legal or illegal activity? Put myself at the discretionary powers of the appointed Authorities or do the right thing? Be active in training and education, or buy coffee?


You're throwing around terms and issues again as if they were identical or equivalent when they are not.

Privacy? That's a wholly different question than anything we've been discussing here. Kind of hard to picture why you've included it.

(And I am concerned that you've included it as a dodge or red herring to extend your argument.)
 
No, it's not a dodge or a red herring: The Supreme Court has ruled that Corporations are "individuals". People, with the decision making rights of an individual and their own self-determination as such. Though open for public business, such as a Starbucks is for coffee customers, it is legally considered a private business wherein said privacy MAY include/exclude firearms carry.

Starbucks may have very well gone the other direction with their policy decision, and still could, without legal repercussions. However, if a legally carrying individual goes into that business where legally posted, the legal repercussions exist in many states against the CCW person. That is not a matter of my opinion, personal theory, or interpretation-it's the law!

We have the best set of checks and balances on the planet to change said Laws. Decide. Legal or illegal activity? Put myself at the discretionary powers of the appointed Authorities or do the right thing? Be active in training and education, or buy coffee?
Corporate personhood is only recognized in very limited terms. They can own property; they can sue and be sued; they can enter into contracts; they can advertise their products; recently,they can contribute to political campaigns. But is inaccurate to assert that corporations have ALL of the legal protections granted to individual human citizens. The following editorial from the 9/21/2009 NY Times is very instructive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/22/opinion/22tue1.html
 
eer, no offense ezkl, but I put the NY Times alongside the National Inquirer; entertainment value only. Again, no offense.

This has been an informative and well balanced debate.

Kudos to THR staff for maintaining an excellent website.
 
eer, no offense ezkl, but I put the NY Times alongside the National Inquirer; entertainment value only. Again, no offense.
There are numerous sources other than the NYTimes which contain the cited information: http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/citizens-united-v-federal-election-commission/

Indeed, Chief Justice John Marshall's comment regarding corporate personhood is recorded in Dartmouth College v. Woodward itself: “A corporation is an artificial being, invisible, intangible, and existing only in contemplation of law. Being the mere creature of law, it possesses only those properties which the charter of its creation confers upon it.”

No, it's not a dodge or a red herring: The Supreme Court has ruled that Corporations are "individuals". People, with the decision making rights of an individual and their own self-determination as such. Though open for public business, such as a Starbucks is for coffee customers, it is legally considered a private business wherein said privacy MAY include/exclude firearms carry.
Except for the fact that limitations on the freedoms of corporations regarding public accommodations have been upheld ever since the Civil Rights Act of 1965. Given sufficient legislative will, such a professed right can be withheld just as the RKBA for people who have been convicted of crimes. Just as a person can avoid committing crimes, a business could avoid providing products and services to the general public but instead offer them to a selected clientele of members, a la whites-only country clubs.
 
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