Adjusting 1851 Pietta Colt Navy half cock adjustment

[mh2000]

So I just got my second 1851 Colt Navy from Cabelas. The first one had totally locked up wedge, so I had to return it.

On the new one, the "timeing" (if that's what you call it for the hand) of the hand is very off and makes it hard to load. At half cock, when you rotate the cylinder to load ball with ramrod, the hand is resting on the ramp of the cylinder sprocket (what is that called?), so the cylinder wants to rotate out from under the ramrod.

I've done an extensive search and have come up with nothing. Would a new hammer fix this or do I need to adjust the one I have? Looking at photos of the hammer, it makes it look like if I ground the half cock cutout deeper, that I would be able to tune the location of the hammer and get the loading to better line up. People online talk about filling powder etc. and then rotating cylinder until it stops (against hand). Mine is very far off from this, but if the hammer was not held so far back at half cock it would be ok.

My 1858 Remmington was completely troublefree... but getting this Colt up, running and fun to shoot not so much!

All help appreciated!

Thanks! (New member!)

Mark

 

[arcticap]

I realize that many people want to fix their own guns and many are capable.
But some folks are not capable and probably shouldn't try to fix it if they have other options that are free of cost, result in safer repairs or because the gun is brand new.

For people unsure of what to do, I found this info about possibly contacting Pietta customer service:--->>> https://www.go2gbo.com/forums/92-cap-ball-revolvers-pistols/335881-pietta-customer-service.html
One person emailed Pietta and received a new wedge from Italy.--->>> [email protected]

Having said that, did you already fire the gun and can it still be sent back to Cabela's?
If not fired then why not ask for another replacement from Cabela's, or purchase a Traditions Pietta that comes with a 1 year warranty as an alternative?
Traditions models are available from a lot of outfits.
If a dealer doesn't have it in stock then they'll usually try to get one. Or you can buy direct from Traditions at a higher cost, or see if Traditions has a scratch & dent that's also covered by warranty.
The Cabela's gun has probably already become more costly.

I realize that we all have our reasons for buying from Cabela's which I've done too.
But on those occasions I went there in person and hand picked through the ones that they had in stock until I found one that was satisfactory or I would walk away.

Cabela's owes you a gun that works as advertised for the price.
If the gun they sold you needs a new hammer or other work done, then why not let Pietta supply the new hammer or let their repair techs work on it if that's possible?

Repairs can be expected if buying a used gun, but not a new one, especially if purchased brand new by mail order from a national retailer.
It's unfortunate that it has happened twice in a row, but unless Cabela's won't accept another return and replace it, then I would try to work it out through Pietta.
That's because I generally don't try to fix guns, especially new ones.

Did you contact Cabela's about the situation at all and did they refer you to anyone?

I hope that someone else here can help you.

 

[44 Dave]

Any clone I get a clone it gets de-burred and internals polished before I worry to much. Would not cut into hammer notches as it is casehardened (only the surface).
Would suspect he hand spring bent applying excessive pressure.only needs to be enough to catch the ratchet and help to slow cylinder flyby

 

[drobs]

FYI - Pietta has a video on how to remove the wedge.


I had __tch of time trying to get bolt spring screw out of my recent 1851 Navy from Cabela's (part of the $50 off all Pietta Sale). Finally had to lock the frame in my padded bench vice and apply pressure while turning to get it out. Munged the heck out of it.

Once apart, I found the hand spring was placed in the hand at an angle. The bottom corner of the spring was sticking out where it met the hand. Swiped that on some 600grit sandpaper and removed the sharp corner.

I then checked the bolt head fit in the cylinder locking notches. Found one of them seemed a bit tight. Swiped the bolt head on the same black 600grit sandpaper and checked again. Good to go.

I had previously bought a Wolff EMF wire bolt sear spring# 32297 as a member on another board reported receiving a Pietta 1851 Navy from the same sale with a broken spring. Being that I work overseas , only have a short periods of time in the states, and wanted to shoot this gun, I grabbed 2 spares to have on hand.

I installed that Wolf wire bolt spring. Seems to me it may have helped with the timing of the cylinder a little. Probably unrelated to the sear spring but I too noted when I 1st handled the gun that cylinder seemed a little slow / off. Cleaning up the hand spring issue up probably solved that for me.

Anywho, with those few tweaks. The gun is running good now.

This picture was taken after firing a complete 100 count box of Hornady 375 round ball over the course of 2 weeks.

 

[maint1517]

Drobs, I went to play the video. A message popped up saying it had been blocked in my country due to copyright grounds.

 

[drobs]

Drobs, I went to play the video. A message popped up saying it had been blocked in my country due to copyright grounds.

Works here in Africa...

I'll message them and see if they can remove the music which is probably the issue.

For those that can't see the video. Lay the gun on it's side on a table. Support the barrel with piece of wood (they use the handle from a hammer to support the barrel). Then use a hammer and a punch to knock out the wedge.

Easy peazy.

 

[mh2000]

hahaha! I tried all those suggestions on the wedge removal. this was not budging! I found a post somewhere where an engineer put a stuck one in an Instron and it took like 6000 lbs. and still didn't budge. The new one was really tight, but a rubber mallet got it out no problem.

Yeah, I'm going to call Cabela's tomorrow.

 

[drobs]

If you want to hold till Wednesday, I'll check my 51 for you. I seem to recall all my Pietta open tops that it's real easy to have the chamber under the plunger move to the next position if you are not careful to control the cylinder with your fingers-hand. I don't know that this is correctable. I simply place the ball on the chamber I want to ram before it's under the plunger.

I don't believe there is a hard stop of the cylinder at that location.

 

[denster]

So I just got my second 1851 Colt Navy from Cabelas. The first one had totally locked up wedge, so I had to return it.

On the new one, the "timeing" (if that's what you call it for the hand) of the hand is very off and makes it hard to load. At half cock, when you rotate the cylinder to load ball with ramrod, the hand is resting on the ramp of the cylinder sprocket (what is that called?), so the cylinder wants to rotate out from under the ramrod.

I've done an extensive search and have come up with nothing. Would a new hammer fix this or do I need to adjust the one I have? Looking at photos of the hammer, it makes it look like if I ground the half cock cutout deeper, that I would be able to tune the location of the hammer and get the loading to better line up. People online talk about filling powder etc. and then rotating cylinder until it stops (against hand). Mine is very far off from this, but if the hammer was not held so far back at half cock it would be ok.

My 1858 Remmington was completely troublefree... but getting this Colt up, running and fun to shoot not so much!

All help appreciated!

Thanks! (New member!)

Mark

There is nothing wrong with your gun it is the way it is supposed to me. When loading if you rotate the cylinder back towards the hand until it stops the loading lever will be between chambers that is how it is supposed to be. When loading rotate the cylinder till the ball is under the rammer and hold it there while you bring the rammer into contact with the ball. Now the rammer will hold everything in place while you seat the ball. You just need a little becoming used to the gun to get familiar with the process nothing complicated about it. Might want to watch a few youtube videos on loading the open top Colts.

 

[mh2000]

Thanks denster (and all)!

I was more hoping that was the case! The problem was that I did watch videos and one guy specifically said turn the cylinder back to index/stop it under the ramrod and since that's how my Remington 1858 works, I *thought* the Colt would be similar.

That's where the problem came in! Over thinking it! In trying to acquaint myself with the new gun, I realized that if the hammer was adjusted on my gun so it did not go so far back at half cock, that the hand would index the stop for loading which would have been better so I asked if anyone else ever did this.

While I recognize how groundbreaking the Colt design was for the time, I have to say as an engineer, that it's a pretty crappy design overall--starting with the easily lost wedge!

Anyway, regarding loading and indexing, it seems with this revolver, that it might just be easier to load an empty cylinder, pull the hammer back an 1/8th cock while rotating the ball under the ramrod and releasing so the block engages/indexes the cylinder for loading. Anyone else do this?

 

[arcticap]

I'm really glad that denster could help you, especially considering the previously stuck wedge issue.
And I can totally understand not being familiar with the 1851.
I went searching old threads about timing & helf-cock issues, and saw possible options which can be tricky to figure out & fix.
But that leads to this suggestion for future reference.
The THR archives have a wealth of info. by using the advanced search feature, entering keywords and specifying the black powder forum.
Many gunsmithing questions have been addressed in detail with sound advice.
I'm sure that feature will come in handy for you at some point to help augment the advice of the fine folks here.

Regarding buying Traditions guns, at least they have a technician that a person could speak with on the phone who can answer questions.
Other importers probably have techs available too which Cabela's doesn't.

 

[mh2000]

>> RE: advanced search feature

I went through that (here and elsewhere) heavily regarding the stuck wedge and didn't post a single question. But regarding adjusting the half cock stop location, I didn't find a single reference anywhere! Yes, being assured that this is in fact is how the gun was (poorly) designed, is one thing, but still, no one was able to answer the actual question I was asking! So this isn't a "use the search feature and don't take up bandwidth" issue! But if in my extensive search, I missed a thread on this, call me a dummy. I tried.

As I said above, this may be a case where I'm overthinking something, but that's kind of the fun of hobbies! I've seen videos where people modify their BP Colts in all kinds of ways (like replacing original springs with helical ones--needing to drill extra holes, etc.).

Until I posted here, I assumed my Colt was as designed and didn't consider returning it until two people here suggested that I should. Regarding my actual question, since I will probably have to buy a replacement parts kit at some point, I can revisit the question and perhaps try figuring out the mod myself as it doesn't seem that difficult and the risk (especially if I end up with an extra hammer) is low given the low price of the parts. If I do, and it works out, I'll try to post it somewhere... otherwise, maybe I'll just shoot the gun and not worry about it!



Thanks all!

 

[mh2000]

regarding buying locally, no one has the Piettas here. A local Ace has a Uberti 1849 Colt that I'm interested in and will be much happier buying from some place with knowledgeable staff! (Of course the Uberti costs a lot more than the Piettas from Cabelas too!).

 

[mh2000]

Yes, a wealth of information out there! During my initial search for info on this question, I came across many links and pdf's on gunsmithing and saved them all on my computer. I was surprised that as deep as they went, not a single one addressed modifying the stop for half cock. (Maybe that's the answer, don't worry about it!)

 

[arcticap]

I had come across a question regarding modifying the hammer Half-cock and it had photos and mentioned deburring and using sandpaper,
warning not to damage the surface hardening.
And it worked to solve that person's problem.

There were other threads about how the action & timing works and about how far back the hammer should travel toward the main spring when fully cocked.
There was a possibility of a piece being broken off the hand, and it's overall length.
All unrelated to your question, however many threads here can provide input for the future.
Threads have been posted by experienced professional and home gunsmiths and hobbyists for over 20 years.

Just wait until you start reading about cam issues. LOL!

You can always try to speak with a tech. at Traditions, Taylors, Dixie or EMF or such even if you don't have one of their guns.
Once patched through, if they ask to verify your serial number (which never happens), just tell them you're at work and don't have it handy.
A tech may not always be available, but a phone call is always worth a try.
You never know what future questions that might crop up or who will be online here with good or bad advice.

But THR's advanced search BP database really is priceless.
Please keep coming back here and sharing your experiences.
THR is the best BP forum that offers the best advice, especially for C&B revolver shooters.

 

[mh2000]

Hey, how about sending me the search terms you used to get this information. "1851 half cock adjustment" got me nothing that I was looking for. If the information is out there and I just didn't know the correct search terms, it'd be great to know!

Agree that this is a priceless resource, I've been long time lurker and searcher most of the year after getting interested in BP revolvers! That's why when I spent a few days searching for information that I couldn't find, I joined!

Again, thanks all!

 

[arcticap]

I didn't save any searches, and sometimes many pages of results can come up with threads having preview sentences which need to be skimmed over.

I try to use only one or two simple keywords, one search may have been for "hammer" and the other for "half cock".
Then I looked for threads with a preview sentence that included 1851 revolvers or and was not about muzzle loaders.
Needless to say, I tried to skip over threads about Remington 1858's too.

Clicking on a search result can bring you into a post in the middle of a thread, which then can necessitate reading more posts up or down the thread to find photos and determine relevance.

Some of the threads that I mentioned involved advice from THR memeber "Old Fuff".

 

[44 Dave]

My loading procedure is to leave the ram in chamber after seating the bullet then load powder and ball then lift the leaver and rotate the cylinder under the ram.

 

[mh2000]

Peace! I tried all that before posting and after the comment to search first came up. I didn't come up with anything that exactly addressed my "problem," but as I said, maybe I was making a problem where there really wasn't one... and the answer was to just enjoy shooting a bit of history without over-thinking it and trying to make it *better*!

 

[expat_alaska]

Peace? The THR BP forum is, IMO, the best out there. 99% of everyone responding to your post is just giving their $.02 worth. This is the best forum in order to learn from guys/gals that have been around the block more than a few times. They are giving you their experience. This is not a perfect hobby, and I hope you will respect that. You have made 9 posts and are a newbie. Welcome, and stick around for a bit. Some of the answers to your questions may not come immediately and read some previous posts related to your situation again. I am not trying to be a jerk, but things sometimes take time. The correct answers to your situation may take a bit of perusing. I think you are in a hurry.

Peace.

Jim

 

[mh2000]

That was meant in a positive way! With many thanks to all! Meant that sincerely! Long before I posted, I've been following this forum and completely agree with you!

So best all! Thanks to all! I'm not going to worry about this. And as I said, I was probably over-thinking it and was asking what the experts thought (since in several hours of searching, I couldn't find anything on the specific subject I was wondering about!)

Have a great Saturday night and rest of the weekend all!

 

[mh2000]

well... just to make things more interesting, before even firing the revolver, the trigger/bolt spring decided to break! I ordered one. It would cost almost as much to send the gun back as it will to get the spring and since the gun is otherwise nice, will just fix and keep it. Read this is far from an uncommon occurrence with these Piettas.

 

[denster]

Thanks denster (and all)!

I was more hoping that was the case! The problem was that I did watch videos and one guy specifically said turn the cylinder back to index/stop it under the ramrod and since that's how my Remington 1858 works, I *thought* the Colt would be similar.

That's where the problem came in! Over thinking it! In trying to acquaint myself with the new gun, I realized that if the hammer was adjusted on my gun so it did not go so far back at half cock, that the hand would index the stop for loading which would have been better so I asked if anyone else ever did this.

While I recognize how groundbreaking the Colt design was for the time, I have to say as an engineer, that it's a pretty crappy design overall--starting with the easily lost wedge!

Anyway, regarding loading and indexing, it seems with this revolver, that it might just be easier to load an empty cylinder, pull the hammer back an 1/8th cock while rotating the ball under the ramrod and releasing so the block engages/indexes the cylinder for loading. Anyone else do this?

First let me state that it is not possible to modify the half cock notch so that the cylinder can be rotated back against the hand to hold a chamber in register for loading. The reason being is that the hammer would then be in the full down position.
You were not able to find anything about modifying (timing) the halfcock notch because the subject has not been discussed as it is not viable for any real purpose.
You almost hit on the solution to your problem. If keeping a chamber locked under the rammer is your desire then simply place gun in half cock, load powder and ball in the chamber nearest the loading cutout, then bring the hammer to full cock and lower it and that chamber will be firmly locked under the rammer for loading then repeat as many times as necessary.

 

[mh2000]

I must be missing something, because when I hold the hammer back around 1/4 cock, the cylinder spins freely in the clockwise direction and when I rotate it in the counter clockwise direction, it can be adjusted so the cylinder is stopped by the hand AND is aligned under the ramrod. Give it a try! Since the location of the half cock is determined by the depth of the notch on the hammer, you can definitely change the location of the hammer at half cock. Can you get it to the point that I was wondering about, I don't know. Is it worth it? Probably not. As I said, I was probably just over-engineering it in my mind. Best!

 

[maint1517]

I wouldn't mess with the half cock position. IMHO,it could create an unsafe loading situation.