Advanced Handloading Techniques: Best bang for your buck & time

[tjd308]

I've been handloading for a variety of rifles over the last two years and am becoming more and more interesting in learning about taking things to the next level for my bolt guns in particular. My most accurate rifle is a Remington 700 in .308 WIN with a Bartlein 24" 5R M24 contour barrel, etc etc. I did some load development and am down to right around 0.5 MOA on my better 5 shot groups, but on average more around 0.75" to be totally honest (don't want to be the typical internet forum diva that takes his very best group ever and uses it as a proxy for what he'd shoot 100% of the time).

As far as techniques go, I'm not doing anything special except for using a Lee collet die to neck size only. Other than that it's the typical process that involves ensuring cleaned and uniformed primer pockets, weighing powder very carefully with a trickler versus just the mechanical metering, etc...

Can anyone provide a rank ordered list of the more advanced techniques that are the best bang for the resources invested (time/money)? Thinks like turning necks, using a "competition" seater die to ensure bullets are perfectly aligned and seated consistently, drilling out or deburring flash holes, sorting brass by weight/volume, etc. I'm open to anything, weather it's a process thing or something that requires an investment in new equipment, but what I'm getting at is that I want to be sure to add the next few elements that will provide the most gain for the investment. I don't want to skip to the most advanced technique while leaving higher yielding efforts first.

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[z7]

I would ask what brass are you using?

My LC brass reloads are .75/1moa loads as of now with a SMK. they shoot good, but not as good as my winchester brass reloads which in my gun my groups have been limited to my poor shootin

I would also ask what seating die?

in terms of case prep what do you currently do? my LC and WIN brass have some significant burs on the flash hole that I remove, not sure if it actually helps but it makes me feel good

 

[LiveLife]

I would ask what brass are you using?

+1. If you are using LC brass, different years varied internal case volume. So even when using same LC head stamp brass, you should sort by year and internal case volume. I used to sort LC .308 brass by weight but now sort by water volume after full-length resizing cases.

There's an "Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions" thread for rifle you may want to check out - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ed-reloading-concepts-and-discussions.778221/

Since I still consider myself a newbie to rifle "handloading", I will defer to many on THR who are much more knowledgeable. Here's a post by Bart B. who used to compete 1000 yard Palma matches from the thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778221/page-2#post-10347176

"Brass prep is not needed to shoot 1/2 MOA groups at worst through 200 yards if quality rifles and bullets are used with good commercial cases. Sierra Bullets does no case prep at all with their cases used to shoot their bullets testing for quality. All of their match bullets have to shoot under 1/2 MOA in their 200-yard indoor test range. They meter charges directly into cases and a 2/10ths to 3/10ths spread in charge weight is good enough.

Full length sizing dies with their neck's about .002" smaller than loaded round neck diameter set to bump fired case shoulders back a couple thousandths is what Sierra bullets uses as well as top ranked center fire rifle competitors use. Redding or RCBS full bushing dies or one from Forster they've honed the neck out to your specs for an additional $12; either way is going to work well.

Note that accuracy on target depends on how 3 things perform. 25% is the rifle, another 25% is the ammo and us humans are the remaining 50%. Don't fall into the popular trap that the smallest few-shot group shot represents the accuracy of the rifle and its ammo. Benchresters shooting their rifles in free recoil (99% of human variables are removed) see a 4 to 5 times spread of several 5-shot groups shot in a day. And their first one is not always the smallest one; that tiny group can occur at any time."

And here's a post from jwrowland77 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...concepts-and-discussions.778221/#post-9876632

"I've been shooting F-Class ... and add a bit to the discussion.

Using longer than SAAMI length.

Well, with my match loads, I currently use 3.000" for my .308. When I first started using this load, I was .02" off the lands which is where I always start and generally stay. If I wanted to stay there, I'd have to go .0245" further out due to barrel erosion over the last year (approx 2k rounds). I have my best accuracy at .02" off, BUT before I had the Hornady OAL gauge, I also find ok accuracy at the book normal of 2.800", just not F-Class good. Needless to say, I'll be getting a barrel change after a class in July.

One thing that it helped me with going with a longer OAL, is I was able to get 100%+ case fill which I get around 100% powder burn (based on QL 99.6%). It also gives me a slightly compressed load instead of a compressed compressed load.

I get great accuracy from using the longer OAL (generally 1/2moa out to 600) if I do my part."

 

[Blue68f100]

One of the easiest things to get a better more consistent grouping is, sorting by mfg and weight, (within 1%). Different mfg use different brass composition which means the work harden at different rates. Sorting by weight (once brass has been prepped) gets the case volume pretty close to each other. Then premium bullets can help too. Stick/tubular powder seam to be less temp sensitive over ball's.

I use LC brass in my 223R but it is sorted by year. Then if I want a little tighter spread I sort by weight. Mil brass has a lot more prep work to do the 1st time it's loaded.

Make sure your using a bullet weight that you gun can stabilize.

 

[RussellC]

+1. If you are using LC brass, different years varied internal case volume. So even when using same LC head stamp brass, you should sort by year and internal case volume. I used to sort LC .308 brass by weight but now sort by water volume after full-length resizing cases.

There's an "Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions" thread for rifle you may want to check out - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ed-reloading-concepts-and-discussions.778221/

Since I still consider myself a newbie to rifle "handloading", I will defer to many on THR who are much more knowledgeable. Here's a post by Bart B. who used to compete 1000 yard Palma matches from the thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778221/page-2#post-10347176

"Brass prep is not needed to shoot 1/2 MOA groups at worst through 200 yards if quality rifles and bullets are used with good commercial cases. Sierra Bullets does no case prep at all with their cases used to shoot their bullets testing for quality. All of their match bullets have to shoot under 1/2 MOA in their 200-yard indoor test range. They meter charges directly into cases and a 2/10ths to 3/10ths spread in charge weight is good enough.

Full length sizing dies with their neck's about .002" smaller than loaded round neck diameter set to bump fired case shoulders back a couple thousandths is what Sierra bullets uses as well as top ranked center fire rifle competitors use. Redding or RCBS full bushing dies or one from Forster they've honed the neck out to your specs for an additional $12; either way is going to work well.

Note that accuracy on target depends on how 3 things perform. 25% is the rifle, another 25% is the ammo and us humans are the remaining 50%. Don't fall into the popular trap that the smallest few-shot group shot represents the accuracy of the rifle and its ammo. Benchresters shooting their rifles in free recoil (99% of human variables are removed) see a 4 to 5 times spread of several 5-shot groups shot in a day. And their first one is not always the smallest one; that tiny group can occur at any time."

And here's a post from jwrowland77 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...concepts-and-discussions.778221/#post-9876632

"I've been shooting F-Class ... and add a bit to the discussion.

Using longer than SAAMI length.

Well, with my match loads, I currently use 3.000" for my .308. When I first started using this load, I was .02" off the lands which is where I always start and generally stay. If I wanted to stay there, I'd have to go .0245" further out due to barrel erosion over the last year (approx 2k rounds). I have my best accuracy at .02" off, BUT before I had the Hornady OAL gauge, I also find ok accuracy at the book normal of 2.800", just not F-Class good. Needless to say, I'll be getting a barrel change after a class in July.

One thing that it helped me with going with a longer OAL, is I was able to get 100%+ case fill which I get around 100% powder burn (based on QL 99.6%). It also gives me a slightly compressed load instead of a compressed compressed load.

I get great accuracy from using the longer OAL (generally 1/2moa out to 600) if I do my part."

Wow. Nice post...Info packed!
Russellc

 

[rfwobbly]

Others will know more, but as for basics....
• Use one brand of brass
• Weigh your powder
• Sierra MatchKing bullets

 

[Sunray]

Weighing powder very carefully with a trickler and using a good match bullet(doesn't have to be a Match King) matters but most of the case prep fiddling doesn't do much of anything. Including weighing cases, deburring flash holes, any kind of sorting.
You could fiddle with the OAL to be just off-the-lands, but that is a time consuming trial and error load tweaking thing that really doesn't do much.
You change the trigger and bed your M700 too?

 

[Walkalong]

Others will know more, but as for basics....
• Use one brand of brass
• Weigh your powder
• Sierra MatchKing bullets

I'll add.

Match barrel.
Quality action. (Squared up well.)

 

[Bart B.]

You've got a good barrel, just be sure your bullet diameter's at least a few ten-thousandths inch bigger that it's groove diameter.

First off my bat is to suggest you judge accuracy by the largest groups fired. All firearms shoot groups between zero and some amount. The smaller the biggest ones are, all the rest will follow suit. Most of the time, smallest groups happen when all the variables tend to cancel each other out; seldom when all's perfect. Biggest groups show you what happens when those variables all add up. I'm not impressed by tiny, few shot groups unless their sizes have a 10% spread. Shoot at least 10 per group; more is better, statistically speaking. Benchrester's winning weekend matches typically see a 4X to 5X spread across several 5-shot groups. Their first one is not always the smallest nor the largest.

Second, have the rifles bolt and receiver faces squared up as suggested That's worth half a MOA in your groups. And the barrel won't shoot bullets somewhere else as it heats up.

Third, use commercial new cases to start with. Surplus military case heads are not very square; they hurt accuracy and never square up. Decent new commercial cases typically shoot bullets straighter than neck only sized ones in my experience, and almost equal proper full length sized ones. New Lake City arsenal service cases with their bullets replaced with good ones will shoot MOA or better through 300 yards in good rifles.

Fourth, use full length sizing dies with bushings, or standard ones whose neck's honed out, .002" smaller than loaded round neck diameter. Bump fired case shoulders back .002". Trim case necks to square them up; a .010" spread in case length is not an issue. Such tools will make cases hold bullets very straight seated with standard seating dies. Forget case prep until your biggest groups at 100 yards are about half an inch. But sort cases by weight in 1% spreads for use at ranges past 300 yards.

Thrown powder charges with a quarter grain spread in charge weight is good enough through 300 yards. Use stick powders.

Shooting groups is the same as rolling several pairs of dice. Subtract 7 from each pair's number thrown and that represents that pair's variable amount from zero. Some pairs' units at 100 yards are worth .001", some are .010" and others .100" per unit. They're all at different angles.

 

[tjd308]

You've got a good barrel, just be sure your bullet diameter's at least a few ten-thousandths inch bigger that it's groove diameter.

First off my bat is to suggest you judge accuracy by the largest groups fired. All firearms shoot groups between zero and some amount. The smaller the biggest ones are, all the rest will follow suit. Most of the time, smallest groups happen when all the variables tend to cancel each other out; seldom when all's perfect. Biggest groups show you what happens when those variables all add up. I'm not impressed by tiny, few shot groups unless their sizes have a 10% spread. Shoot at least 10 per group; more is better, statistically speaking. Benchrester's winning weekend matches typically see a 4X to 5X spread across several 5-shot groups. Their first one is not always the smallest nor the largest.

Second, have the rifles bolt and receiver faces squared up as suggested That's worth half a MOA in your groups. And the barrel won't shoot bullets somewhere else as it heats up.

Third, use commercial new cases to start with. Surplus military case heads are not very square; they hurt accuracy and never square up. Decent new commercial cases typically shoot bullets straighter than neck only sized ones in my experience, and almost equal proper full length sized ones. New Lake City arsenal service cases with their bullets replaced with good ones will shoot MOA or better through 300 yards in good rifles.

Fourth, use full length sizing dies with bushings, or standard ones whose neck's honed out, .002" smaller than loaded round neck diameter. Bump fired case shoulders back .002". Trim case necks to square them up; a .010" spread in case length is not an issue. Such tools will make cases hold bullets very straight seated with standard seating dies. Forget case prep until your biggest groups at 100 yards are about half an inch. But sort cases by weight in 1% spreads for use at ranges past 300 yards.

Thrown powder charges with a quarter grain spread in charge weight is good enough through 300 yards. Use stick powders.

Shooting groups is the same as rolling several pairs of dice. Subtract 7 from each pair's number thrown and that represents that pair's variable amount from zero. Some pairs' units at 100 yards are worth .001", some are .010" and others .100" per unit. They're all at different angles.

Thanks for the tips. The rifle has a Bell & Carlson stock w/ aluminum pillar and fiberglass bedding, squared & trued bolt face, Timmney trigger, etc. It was put together by a somewhat well known bench rest rifle gunsmith (COL Billy Stevens w/ Stevens Accuracy). I'll work on some of the advice given in this thread, but I don't think the rifle is to blame. And again, I'm already shooting between 0.5 and 0.75 MOA, so nothing is wrong per say but I'm guessing I could eek out just a tad more with the right loads and even more consistent loads.

 

[Dog Soldier]

I have been reloading for over 50 years. I will never be an expert. Because I learn something new every year.

 

[Bart B.]

I'm already shooting between 0.5 and 0.75 MOA, so nothing is wrong per say but I'm guessing I could eek out just a tad more with the right loads and even more consistent loads.

Maybe; maybe not. If your biggest groups are .75 MOA shot from a bench, they may stay under .50 MOA if shot from a more consistent position.

In tests I've observed, most people shouldering center fire rifles as they rest on something on a bench top add their own variables to that of the rifle and ammo. That adds a half MOA or more to their rifle and ammo's ability. Most folks will shoot smaller groups from prone resting the rifle on bags; with or without a sling. The rifle recoils more repeatable from shot to shot from prone compared to sitting at a bench.

Regarding load consistency, how much smaller could your test groups be with .223 ammo if the muzzle velocity spread was reduced from 40 to 20 fps? A 20 fps spread in .223 Rem bullets' muzzle velocity causes a bullet drop spread at 100 yards to be about .02".

 

[tjd308]

Maybe; maybe not. If your biggest groups are .75 MOA shot from a bench, they may stay under .50 MOA if shot from a more consistent position.

In tests I've observed, most people shouldering center fire rifles as they rest on something on a bench top add their own variables to that of the rifle and ammo. That adds a half MOA or more to their rifle and ammo's ability. Most folks will shoot smaller groups from prone resting the rifle on bags; with or without a sling. The rifle recoils more repeatable from shot to shot from prone compared to sitting at a bench.

Regarding load consistency, how much smaller could your test groups be with .223 ammo if the muzzle velocity spread was reduced from 40 to 20 fps? A 20 fps spread in .223 Rem bullets' muzzle velocity causes a bullet drop spread at 100 yards to be about .02".

Great points Bart. I actually am firing from the prone position using a Caldwell "Tack Driver" bag and homemade rear bag. Through trial and error, I did realize the bench just wasn't right for me and didn't feel like I was setting up the same exact way shot to shot. I've often wondered if using some kind of sled would help eliminate any more human error and allow me to truly be just a trigger puller. It would be nice to know exactly what the rifle and round is doing and how much is me.

Interesting about fps spread. Besides very consistent powder charges, what are the other primary factors affecting this?

 

[grouselips1]

Deviation of velocity can be due to inconsistent neck tension or the choice of primers. Don't get hung up on this though, take the results of your group size over what the chronograph is displaying. If you get uniform, tight groups, then who cares what the deviation is, within reason. You can use the chrono as a diagnostic tool when you see a bunch of fliers, stringing (if there are no bedding or technique problems) or signs of excessive pressure. Just my two cents.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Look up "Berger VLD seating depth test.

 

[Walkalong]

(COL Billy Stevens w/ Stevens Accuracy

He put a barrel on the Benchrest gun in my safe some years back. A super nice fellow who does great work. So, you have the platform to do it.

 

[Bart B.]

There's often a greater velocity spread caused by how the rifle is held than the components' variables cause. Us humans don't hold 'em very repeatable.

Velocity spreads in an ammo lot is best determined with the barreled action clamped in a fixed mount so it doesn't recoil back at all. The barreled action laying in a Mann rest or the rifle fired in totally free recoil is a very close second.

 

[Offfhand]

If you have a Billy Stevens rifle why are you asking here? He's one of the best, just do what he tells you to do and you're good to go.

 

[Bart B.]

Besides very consistent powder charges, what are the other primary factors affecting this?

Some powders produce more uniform and consistent pressure curves with larger spreads in charge weights than others. Good ones will have a lower spread in muzzle velocity with a 2/10ths grain in charge weights than zero spread with another. My experience is mostly with the .308 Win and at ranges 300 yards and less, the accuracy difference across a 10% spread in charge weight's hard to tell. It sometimes helps as range increases. One has to test at longer ranges to verify..

Most uniform and consistent muzzle velocities typically come from extruded powders whose charge weight is in the upper middle range of its load data. Seldom, if ever, at maximum charges of the slower powders producing highest average muzzle velocity. When several of us worked up a load for a new 30 caliber match bullet, the load chose ended up with a 3/10ths grain spread in charge weight, .003" max bullet runout, new unprepped cases (except for uniforming case mouth diameter) all loaded on a pair of progressive loaders. It tested under 3 inches at 600 yards for 20-shot group; under 1 MOA at 1000. Shot in several rifles from around the world, their owners reported near half MOA accuracy at 600 yards. Not bad for all sorts of barrel bore, bore and chamber dimensions.

One interesting thing noticed from a ballistic lab report was that AA2520 ball powder metered to a 1/10th grain spread produced lower velocity and peak pressure spreads yet the worst accuracy at long range compared to IMR4895 extruded powder metered to a 3/10ths grain spread that we got best accuracy with.

As mentioned earlier, if your stuff was built by a good 'smith that knows what's happening, his suggestions are well worth considering.

A good way to learn your 'smiths credibility for understanding the mechanical basics of accuracy is to ask him how a rimless bottleneck case fits the chamber when the round fires. If he answers any way other than:

Perfectly centered up front in the chamber shoulder, case neck not touching anything and case body touching nothing behind the shoulder except a very tiny bit off center against the chamber wall at the back end's pressure ring and the case head that's a thousandth or so off the bolt face.

. . .. (in so many words), find another 'smith.

 

[Bart B.]

Deviation of velocity can be due to inconsistent neck tension....

Yes it can.

What's the standard used in the best way to measure it? Arsenal's do it that way. Very easy and precise.

Once it's known, it's easy to calculate the pressure in the case when the bullet overcomes it.

 

[WVRJ]

One thing that I use that helps take a little off group size is a good runout/concentricity tool.I sort loaded rounds by the amount of runout they show,using the worst rounds for sighters or practice.Even with competition dies,runout can be a factor.I also true up the flash holes and use Redding neck lube for a more consistent pull.When you get down to .7 MOA and tighter,the shooter is a huge spoiler in the equation.I have my good days,and some days am as well off just leaving em in the safe.Tiny variations in how the rifle is held and fired can be more the limiting factor that ammo variables.That just means I need to shoot more to get better at it

 

[LiveLife]

Neck turning will help with inconsistent neck tension - http://www.6mmbr.com/neckturningbasics.html

 

[murf]

suggest you buy a box of federal gold medal match ammo in the same bullet weight you are now shooting. fire a ten shot group recording the temp, wind condition, cloud cover, shooting method (benched, bipod, free-recoil, etc.). shoot one shot every minute, single loaded (don't leave a round in the chamber for more than necessary). use that group as a benchmark for further load development.

luck,

murf

 

[Bart B.]

One thing that I use that helps take a little off group size is a good runout/concentricity tool.

While these are very popular, I've never been enthralled by them. I made one years ago, then learned that it, as well as all the commercial ones don't measure bullet runout relative to how the case aligns itself in the chamber. Depending on the type you use, one will show twice the runout for a given round as another. A perfectly straight round that headspaces on its shoulder can have its bullet tip .001" off center in the chamber near the origin of the rifling and the bullet will be at a slight angle to the bore axis. But it's repeatable from round to round so it matters not at all.

So, I just started using standard full length sizing dies whose necks were honed out to a couple thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameters bumping fired case shoulders back a couple thousandths. Bullets seated very straight with standard seating dies that come with sizers. Only time I used my runout gauge any significant amount is with new ammo I didn't load. Any runout from all these gauges that's less than 1% of bullet diameter is good enough for 2/3 MOA accuracy though 600 yards.

Most case necks are bent by sizing dies; especially the with expander balls. If dies don't make necks straight on cases, no seater die totally straightens them up.

Bend the case necks on those with bigger numbers to decently straight and the bullet will follow. I use a 33 caliber collet for pulling bullets to hold my 30 caliber case necks while I bend them pushing on the back of the case. Easily improves accuracy by a half MOA or more.

 

[blue32]

I'd recommend a digital scale with auto trickle in addition to a sturdy powder funnel. Hand weighing / charging stick powders is very time intensive.