Advice .327 and .380?

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horsey300

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So, cool thing to point out, the .327 and .380 have several recommended powders in common, though the .380 only uses about half of what the .327 uses in charge weight.
Now to the reason I'm posting, #1 I've been cranking out high velocity 85s in the single 7 and I love them, I'm just under max with cfe pistol, and I'm contemplating playing with imrtarget as well, but it's been brought to my attention that as fun as these loads are, the lady of the house thought this gun was to be added to HER arsenal and might appreciate a lil less snap out of it. With that in mind, I'm wondering if anyone has any results involving the .327 85 gr at 1400 fps or less? I'm leaning towards titegroup for this, but hp 38 is also on my radar. Alliant data suggests I should only run unobtainable 115 gr gold dots or I'd include their powders as well, and in this area, Alliant and hodgdon are the most likely to be found on a shelf.
Now onto the .380, we're loading for a Walther pk380 and it too is a blast! From available data, my high velocity choices for the .327 also work as hv possibilities for the .380, with titegroup getting perkier in the smaller case. Ideally I'd like a heavy duty 90 gr load to duplicate the sd factory ammo (haven't chronographed yet, but advertised at +1000 fps) which puts me on cfe pistol, imrtarget, and titegroup, of these, I'll choose 1st the one that uses the least amount of powder to obtain velocity to mitigate as much recoil as possible. Just for giggles, I might also load something less vicious, and hp 38 jumps up for this as well. So my questions are:
How does hp 38 do for either of these cartridges and since I'll be running through the auto drum, does it meter well? For either cartridge is there a better powder to do what I'm wanting to achieve?
 
The 327 Fed and the 380 auto have nothing in common!

Hp 38 is a good powder for the 380 and just OK for the 327 Fed. Yes, it meters well and a good all around powder

For the 327 I like slower "magnum" powders"
Other than that I so no correlation between the two??
 
The 327 Fed and the 380 auto have nothing in common!

Hp 38 is a good powder for the 380 and just OK for the 327 Fed. Yes, it meters well and a good all around powder

For the 327 I like slower "magnum" powders"
Other than that I so no correlation between the two??
The 90 gr data for .380 shows quite a few powders that are listed for the .327 85 gr...
Eta, the velocity and energy levels are obviously not so close.
 
I agree, they have nothing in common.
Just because data is available for a cartridge/powder combination doesn't mean it's a good choice, just that it can be used.

Just a note, Alliant isn't recommending only the 115gr GDHP bullet, thet list Speer products because they are owned by the same company, Vista Outdoors. Look them up and you will see they own dozens of shooting related companies. It makes sense for them to use their own products.
 
I agree, they have nothing in common.
Just because data is available for a cartridge/powder combination doesn't mean it's a good choice, just that it can be used.

Just a note, Alliant isn't recommending only the 115gr GDHP bullet, thet list Speer products because they are owned by the same company, Vista Outdoors. Look them up and you will see they own dozens of shooting related companies. It makes sense for them to use their own products.
Yes, I'm aware of their business ties, and as I work for a company with similar policies I do understand. So I'm surmising from feedback so far that cfe, imrtarget and titegroup are less feasible to crank velocity in .380? Or am I misunderstanding and these 3 powders are not great for upper end .327 loads? (I'm already getting good results with cfe in the .327 with the 85 gr so I'm not sure which way this is headed?) And for lower range .380 Hp 38 is OK but I should be looking for something else for tamer .327 loads? Such as?
 
The 90 gr data for .380 shows quite a few powders that are listed for the .327 85 gr...
Eta, the velocity and energy levels are obviously not so close.

Well yes there are lots of powders that can and are used for lots of different calibers and bullet weights.

HP38 is a very good powder for the 380 but there again there are others as well. I use a LOT of HP38 between it, Bullseye and 2400 they are really the only powders I need. But lots of loaders like to buy all the different powders. I myself have no use for Titegroup, it can spike pressure much to easy, others love the stuff.

I use HP 38 in the 380 acp. But load the 327 Fed as a Mag load. For what you want, sure you can use it in the 327.
When the 327 first came out there was very little data available, I did a bunch of testing out of my SW snub. I have chrono data somewhere on it.

What gun are you using for the 327?? If you want less potent loads, it will also shoot the .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, and .32 H&R Magnum,

Hodgdon Data

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
 
Well yes there are lots of powders that can and are used for lots of different calibers and bullet weights.

HP38 is a very good powder for the 380 but there again there are others as well. I use a LOT of HP38 between it, Bullseye and 2400 they are really the only powders I need. But lots of loaders like to buy all the different powders. I myself have no use for Titegroup, it can spike pressure much to easy, others love the stuff.

I use HP 38 in the 380 acp. But load the 327 Fed as a Mag load. For what you want, sure you can use it in the 327.
When the 327 first came out there was very little data available, I did a bunch of testing out of my SW snub. I have chrono data somewhere on it.

What gun are you using for the 327?? If you want less potent loads, it will also shoot the .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, and .32 H&R Magnum,

Hodgdon Data

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
We're running it in a single 7, and I do agree on your bullseye/2400 as those are my .38/.357 powders and 2400 is great in its role, I am also planning on starting with it for my .41, the .357 may get some experimenting with the 300mp, as it boosts the fps (in published data) enough to warrant a try. And we've been having enough fun with the single7, that I foresee a couple more, an sp, and at least 1 Blackhawk in .327 being acquired soon, and in the Blackhawk especially, there'll be no watered down loads. But for the time being since I have to "share", having a softer load would buy more range time ;). Thanks for all advice so far gents, keep it coming!
 
Just go with the start load of HP38 and a 85 or 90 gr bullet in the 327. About as mild as you will get.
When I first got mine I used a lot of lead bullets as XTPs and Gold dots are to expensive for just range use.
 
Just go with the start load of HP38 and a 85 or 90 gr bullet in the 327. About as mild as you will get.
When I first got mine I used a lot of lead bullets as XTPs and Gold dots are to expensive for just range use.
Haha, I haven't even found the gold dots available yet lol, the xtps have been on sale, cabelas just closed em out and Natchez has em marked down quite a bit, so we loaded up like crazy, soon I'll be pushing the 100 gr hard for yotes out to 100 yds, but the 85s are plentiful on hand and now we're amassing more brass to catch up.
 
Yes, I'm aware of their business ties, and as I work for a company with similar policies I do understand. So I'm surmising from feedback so far that cfe, imrtarget and titegroup are less feasible to crank velocity in .380? Or am I misunderstanding and these 3 powders are not great for upper end .327 loads? (I'm already getting good results with cfe in the .327 with the 85 gr so I'm not sure which way this is headed?) And for lower range .380 Hp 38 is OK but I should be looking for something else for tamer .327 loads? Such as?
IMO CFE-Pistol will work very well for upper end .327 Magnum ammo but is a little too slow a powder for the .380 ACP. The 2400 you already have will deliver in the .327 Magnum too. There is nothing wrong with HP-38 for lighter .327 Magnum rounds if accuracy is there.

You can use CFE-Pistol in the 380 ACP if you can find an accurate load as long as you don't beat up your hand and gun. HP-38 will work well IMO and I use a lot of it.

As for IMR Target, it is a super fast powder that was developed to compete with Bullseye. It will produce low velocities while reaching peak pressure too soon.
 
I can't help you with .327 mag as I have never even shot one, but just in general terms you are better off using a fast burning powder for lower velocity loads, and slower burning powders for higher velocity.

We're running it in a single 7, and I do agree on your bullseye/2400 as those are my .38/.357 powders and 2400 is great in its role, I am also planning on starting with it for my .41, the .357 may get some experimenting with the 300mp, as it boosts the fps (in published data) enough to warrant a try.

Ok, THAT I can help you with. Look closely at the .357mag load data for 300-MP, quite often (especially with Alliant data) it was shot from a 10" barrel. For some reason, Alliant sometimes mixes up their load data using different barrel lengths (357mag, for instance). I think the Hornady data shows it shot from an 8" barrel. The barrel length really makes a difference with this powder for some reason. I was not seeing anywhere near the high velocities they were showing, from a 5" barrel. Now I know the velocity will be less with a shorter barrel, but in the 5" barrel I was not seeing any increase in velocity compared to other powders, such as 2400 and H110. In fact, the velocity reached a peak more than 2.0gn below the max listed data, the velocity did not increase AT ALL in that range (right around 1200fps with a 158 XTP/mag bullet). When I later tried it in a 16" lever action, I saw a linear increase in velocity all the way up to the max charge. In the 16" barrel, I saw much higher velocity than I did with any other powder (150fps or more). I saw the same characteristics when I worked up loads in 44mag as well. So, I would say that unless you have an 8" or longer barrel, you may not want to bother with 300-MP.
 
Have you tried backing off to a start load of CFE-p?
I had good luck with CFE in a Nagant. Case capacity it's similar to yours, but I'm loading it to low 32 h&r velocities.
 
Have you tried backing off to a start load of CFE-p?
I had good luck with CFE in a Nagant. Case capacity it's similar to yours, but I'm loading it to low 32 h&r velocities.
The start loads weren't a large enough difference in to warrant the use, I figure in this instance getting sub1400 would be my best bet. We went out for more play with the single 7 today, and it was a blast as always, and watching someone who has regularly fired model 19s, model 60s, and a 73 clone shoot that Lil Single7 was amusing. Paying more attention to the shooter found that she was getting sloppy with technique (on a subconscious level I think she just equated it to being so much like my .22 that she could relax her habits?) After a quick couple of reminders on grip etc, she decided that yes this WAS a blast to shoot and maybe tamer loads are not necessary, so keeping those 85s screaming along will be our game plan after all!

I can't help you with .327 mag as I have never even shot one, but just in general terms you are better off using a fast burning powder for lower velocity loads, and slower burning powders for higher velocity.



Ok, THAT I can help you with. Look closely at the .357mag load data for 300-MP, quite often (especially with Alliant data) it was shot from a 10" barrel. For some reason, Alliant sometimes mixes up their load data using different barrel lengths (357mag, for instance). I think the Hornady data shows it shot from an 8" barrel. The barrel length really makes a difference with this powder for some reason. I was not seeing anywhere near the high velocities they were showing, from a 5" barrel. Now I know the velocity will be less with a shorter barrel, but in the 5" barrel I was not seeing any increase in velocity compared to other powders, such as 2400 and H110. In fact, the velocity reached a peak more than 2.0gn below the max listed data, the velocity did not increase AT ALL in that range (right around 1200fps with a 158 XTP/mag bullet). When I later tried it in a 16" lever action, I saw a linear increase in velocity all the way up to the max charge. In the 16" barrel, I saw much higher velocity than I did with any other powder (150fps or more). I saw the same characteristics when I worked up loads in 44mag as well. So, I would say that unless you have an 8" or longer barrel, you may not want to bother with 300-MP.
That is good to know as well, and with that in mind it's already been written off, thank you!!!!! All our barrels run from 3-5.5 so this is good to know.
 
IMO CFE-Pistol will work very well for upper end .327 Magnum ammo but is a little too slow a powder for the .380 ACP. The 2400 you already have will deliver in the .327 Magnum too. There is nothing wrong with HP-38 for lighter .327 Magnum rounds if accuracy is there.

You can use CFE-Pistol in the 380 ACP if you can find an accurate load as long as you don't beat up your hand and gun. HP-38 will work well IMO and I use a lot of it.

As for IMR Target, it is a super fast powder that was developed to compete with Bullseye. It will produce low velocities while reaching peak pressure too soon.
So I'm new to the walther, the SD ammo is pushing 90 gr hps at an advertised 1000 (and change) fps, since it's a larger frame, I have little worry about felt recoil, but I'd like to load practice 90 ammo to similar velocities is the pk380 going to withstand repetitive abuse of this nature or should we slow it down and just try to find something with a similar poi? My thoughts were to stay as close to the factory Rd for practice to keep aim and recoil relative. If the walther won't sustain that as well, then there is no need to push it.
 
For practice .380 loads I really like AA#2 meters great.
For full powder stuff CFE-P has shot well for me, some data here

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/good-powder-for-short-barrel-380.849056/#post-11082727

Note this was from my little Kahr P380 so only a 2.5" barrel.
Factory Fedral 95gr # as well for comparison.

Factory Hodgdon Data Shows best .380 vels with W244 but I haven't had a chance to try my W244 yet in .380.
I have in 9mm and I think Hodgdons vels for it there are a bit optimistic.
(edit-with some other Hodgdon powders in 9mm I find there numbers are generally closer to what I get)
 
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Hodgdons CFE-P #s for a 90
90 GR. HDY JHP Hodgdon CFE Pistol .355" .970" 3.7 880 11,900 PSI 4.2 1,010 19,500 PSI
No idea of barrel length they used

CFE-P meters decent, about like HP38/W231
Neat powder pictures here
AA#2
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=184
HP38
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=290
I thought they had a picture of CFE-P but I am not seeing it in the list. (maybe there and I am getting blind and senile in my old age:))

Of course pictures don't tell how a powder will meter but
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=802
Is known for not metering well.
 
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Hodgdons CFE-P #s for a 90
90 GR. HDY JHP Hodgdon CFE Pistol .355" .970" 3.7 880 11,900 PSI 4.2 1,010 19,500 PSI
No idea of barrel length they used

CFE-P meters decent, about like HP38/W231
Neat powder pictures here
AA#2
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=184
HP38
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=290
I thought they had a picture of CFE-P but I am not seeing it in the list. (maybe there I am getting blind and senile in my old age:))

Of course pictures don't tell how a powder will meter but
http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=802
Is know for not metering well.
The cfep has been metering quite nicely for my .327, I'll have to see how it does with the .380 sized charges lol, to date, the .380 will be the smallest charges I've ever thrown :cool:, we're normally cranking the rifle rounds out like crazy, but no complaints, the turret press is still keeping up for now! ;)
 
Two different animals.

While there are definitely some powders that can be used in both, they are different enough that no one powder is going to get max performance in both calibers.

If all you want is to make them go bang and be accurate, there should be a number of powders that could do that. As pointed out, Hodgdon, and I am sure other makers as well, show a number of powders for both caliber.

As far as velocity for a 100 grain bullet in .380 I don't see anything over 965 (W-572) on the Hodgdon online data. With a 100 grain bullet in .327 Federal you can reach over 1500 FPS (W-296)

The .380 auto operates at around 27,000 PSI, while the .327 Federal operates at around 45,000 PSI. Big difference, and why the faster and medium speed powders suitable for .380 cannot get top velocities in .327 federal, they will max out on pressure with not enough powder (Energy) to get max velocity in the .327.

Just the operating pressure levels makes them different enough that one powder cannot get max performance in both.

That doesn't mean that one powder cannot give satisfactory results in both and make for fun range time, it just means that the powder speed (Slow pistol like H-110) that gives max performance in .327 is not suitable for .380, and the powders that get max velocity in .380 cannot get max velocity in .327 federal as they would be way over pressure to get there.
 
As far as velocity for a 100 grain bullet in .380 I don't see anything over 965 (W-572) on the Hodgdon online data.

Winchester 244 = 994 fps Rank on Hodgdon burn rate chart = 31
Winchester 572 = 965 fps Rank on Hodgdon burn rate chart = 51
CFE-P = 955 fps Rank on Hodgdon burn rate chart = 45
IMR Target = 945 fps Rank on Hodgdon burn rate chart = 14
Autocomp = 934 fps Rank on Hodgdon burn rate chart = 44
Titegroup = 912 fps Rank on Hodgdon burn rate chart = 15

With a 100 grain bullet in .327 Federal you can reach over 1500 FPS (W-296)

The .380 auto operates at around 27,000 PSI, while the .327 Federal operates at around 45,000 PSI. Big difference, and why the faster and medium speed powders suitable for .380 cannot get top velocities in .327 federal, they will max out on pressure with not enough powder (Energy) to get max velocity in the .327.

That doesn't mean that one powder cannot give satisfactory results in both and make for fun range time, it just means that the powder speed (Slow pistol like H-110) that gives max performance in .327 is not suitable for .380, and the powders that get max velocity in .380 cannot get max velocity in .327 federal as they would be way over pressure to get there.

Much of this depends on what bullet weight is selected for comparison, so caution should be used when making general/broad statements. Hence the more prudent recommendation to look at specific load data for specific bullets/weights.

One must also use caution when comparing the ranking on a burn rate chart, because they seldom agree on where powders rank (when comparing powders from more than one company).
 
If you go to Alliant's site you can download their 2018 manual which lists some other bullets for 327
Here is a snip, if you are interested in using Alliant powders. Alliant just shows MAXs and suggests reducing 10% for start charges
upload_2019-3-23_18-1-0.png
I don't own a .327 but BE86 makes nice stout but less than full power loads in .357, I haven't tried it in .380
Might be a good choice. It meters about like CFE-P
 
If you go to Alliant's site you can download their 2018 manual which lists some other bullets for 327
Here is a snip, if you are interested in using Alliant powders. Alliant just shows MAXs and suggests reducing 10% for start charges
View attachment 832713
I don't own a .327 but BE86 makes nice stout but less than full power loads in .357, I haven't tried it in .380
Might be a good choice. It meters about like CFE-P
Thanks for that! I'll check it out! I'd just been viewing recipes from my phone but THAT warrants another look!
 
So, cool thing to point out, the .327 and .380 have several recommended powders in common, though the .380 only uses about half of what the .327 uses in charge weight.
Now to the reason I'm posting, #1 I've been cranking out high velocity 85s in the single 7 and I love them, I'm just under max with cfe pistol, and I'm contemplating playing with imrtarget as well, but it's been brought to my attention that as fun as these loads are, the lady of the house thought this gun was to be added to HER arsenal and might appreciate a lil less snap out of it. With that in mind, I'm wondering if anyone has any results involving the .327 85 gr at 1400 fps or less? I'm leaning towards titegroup for this, but hp 38 is also on my radar. Alliant data suggests I should only run unobtainable 115 gr gold dots or I'd include their powders as well, and in this area, Alliant and hodgdon are the most likely to be found on a shelf.

So, the Lady of the house wants less recoil out of a Single Seven, one of the more versatile 32cal guns out there. It will run 32 H&R magnums, 32 longs and 32shorts. All 3 of those will have less snap then a 327magnum.
 
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