Advice for securing a safe on a carpeted floor
- Thread starter ShooterMcGavin
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Doggy Daddy
Member
Attach 2 panels of 3/4" plywood to the studs using lag bolts for a total thickness of 1 1/2". Gluing the panels together and countersinking the lag bolts is recommended. Line the safe up so as to cover the lag bolts, preventing thieves from removing them. Then run lag bolts from the inside of the safe deep into the plywood panels. Solves the problems of lining up the pre-existing holes in the safe with the studs, and doesn't leave a gap between the safe and the wall.
DD
brassdog
Member
In addition to finding the best way to secure your safe (all of the aforementioned suggestions are a good place to start). Why not take the time to consider concealing it as well. ie adding a false wall in the closet, hardening the closet door and jamb, adding a security system.
The idea is to add multiple layers of security in order to divert, discourage, and defeat the burglars. You can do this one at a time as your budget permits.
The idea is to add multiple layers of security in order to divert, discourage, and defeat the burglars. You can do this one at a time as your budget permits.
Maverick223
Member
^That's my first line of defense... 
Deltaboy1984
Member
1. Loose Lips sink ships
2. layers of defense work best.
3. Set it and built a closet around it.
4. Use a steel door and frame to close it in with Deadbolts.
2. layers of defense work best.
3. Set it and built a closet around it.
4. Use a steel door and frame to close it in with Deadbolts.
JWF III
Member
If the concrete is not an option. Learn how to repair drywall. Seriously.
Have the safe in place where you want it, drill the holes through the carpet and subfloor. (The whole carpet unraveling thing is a myth in my opinion. I've drilled many holes through carpet and never had it happen. Just use a sharp bit and the highest rpms possible.) Now go downstairs, cut a hole in the ceiling ~ 10" square. It might have to be two holes if the mounting holes you drilled are on opposite sides of the joists. Make a not of how far the holes are from the joists.
Now go to a local welding shop and buy one piece of 1/2" steel ~9" square for each mounting bolt. Have the shop blow some holes in the plate with a cutting torch (this will save you a headache and several drill bits). Make sure the hole in each plate is slightly less from the edge than the bolt holes are from the joists.
On your way home go by the Hardware store and get the correct size bolts, nuts, and washers. (Hint: If the holes in the safe are square, buy carraige bolts. This will make it a one person job. If round buy Grade 8 Hex Head bolts and get your spouse or a friend to help.)
Drop the bolts through the holes from up top. From downstairs put the steel plate, washer, and nut on the bolt. Tighten as much as possible.
Doing it this way will increase the surface area that the bolt is holding to. It will actually be stronger than if you lagged the safe to the joists. (A 1/2"x4" Lag bolt has just over 5 square inches of bearing surface on the threads. Each plate would have 81 square inches of bearing surface. If you figured 4, 1 at each corner, you'll have 324 sq. in. as compared to 20 sq.in. So over 16 times the bearing surface with the plates.)
Now all you have to do is patch the drywall below. Really a fairly easy job for a somewhat handy person. If the ceiling is textured, it does increase the difficulty some. The only problem would be when you (if ever) decide to move it. You'll have to recut the wholes and repair the ceiling again.
Wyman
Have the safe in place where you want it, drill the holes through the carpet and subfloor. (The whole carpet unraveling thing is a myth in my opinion. I've drilled many holes through carpet and never had it happen. Just use a sharp bit and the highest rpms possible.) Now go downstairs, cut a hole in the ceiling ~ 10" square. It might have to be two holes if the mounting holes you drilled are on opposite sides of the joists. Make a not of how far the holes are from the joists.
Now go to a local welding shop and buy one piece of 1/2" steel ~9" square for each mounting bolt. Have the shop blow some holes in the plate with a cutting torch (this will save you a headache and several drill bits). Make sure the hole in each plate is slightly less from the edge than the bolt holes are from the joists.
On your way home go by the Hardware store and get the correct size bolts, nuts, and washers. (Hint: If the holes in the safe are square, buy carraige bolts. This will make it a one person job. If round buy Grade 8 Hex Head bolts and get your spouse or a friend to help.)
Drop the bolts through the holes from up top. From downstairs put the steel plate, washer, and nut on the bolt. Tighten as much as possible.
Doing it this way will increase the surface area that the bolt is holding to. It will actually be stronger than if you lagged the safe to the joists. (A 1/2"x4" Lag bolt has just over 5 square inches of bearing surface on the threads. Each plate would have 81 square inches of bearing surface. If you figured 4, 1 at each corner, you'll have 324 sq. in. as compared to 20 sq.in. So over 16 times the bearing surface with the plates.)
Now all you have to do is patch the drywall below. Really a fairly easy job for a somewhat handy person. If the ceiling is textured, it does increase the difficulty some. The only problem would be when you (if ever) decide to move it. You'll have to recut the wholes and repair the ceiling again.
Wyman
rogdigity
Member
in my past house i had the same situation with a 'stack-on' type safe. in fact it WAS a stack-on gun cabinet. it was in my second floor closet with a kitchen below. being a former clepto/thief/punk-ass-kid that should have had my ass kicked more, i understand that you arent so much worried of professional thieves. my main concern was to keep the safe from moving. i had the same type of flooring setup you mentioned with 2x12 joists under the subfloor. my main goal was only to keep it from rocking AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. now notice i didnt say all the way. i could have removed it within an hour or so if i needed to and if i had 'ideal' tools.
i drilled 4 holes in the bottom (it wasnt pre-drilled) and 2 in the back. i lined up the back with one of the wall studs and luckly the floor joists ran right along the right side so i tried lining up that joist with 2 holes and drilled the other 2 on the other side. i used 6x 3 inch long 5/16" lag bolts. i then used two washers per bolt, one ~3/4" wide and one ~1 1/4 inch wide. that gave it plenty of grab on the floor and sides. i used hex head bolts and got out my big ratchet and tightened those guys down as tight as i could. there was a small gap at the bottom on the back though so i had to get a saw and razor knife and cut out a section of the floor board. now if i had room to run at it i could have probably moved it a little. due to its wedged location between my bed and desk it wasnt moving though.
also bolted my much much smaller pistol safe to the sub floor only (out of haste) and used the same bolts. suprisingly the brinks fire safe was just as easy to drill as the stack-on cabinet was... it served its purpose though and kept everything stuck down. i would try something like this if you are on a budget (time and money) and want to get it down. its not the greatest solution, but hey, i have homeowners insurance. if someone does come to take it they could take it if they wanted. ill make the jerks work for it though.
overall you should look at 2 things to secure ANY safe:
1 - the more points of contact, THE BETTER. if a safe has only one bolt it can likely be pivoted and jimmied and when that bolt fails the safe is gone. now add (in my case) 5 more bolts and you are going to have 5 times the pain in your ass after wrestling the thing around. and maybe try stagering them a little. im sure if there are 2 on bottom and 2 on back and they are all in a line that it might be a bit easier
2 - the biger the washers, THE BETTER. the 1/2" hex head wasnt enough for my application so i built up with appropriate washers all the way to 1 1/4"+. that left a VERY large foot print on the inside of the safe to prevent the bolts from pulling through
i drilled 4 holes in the bottom (it wasnt pre-drilled) and 2 in the back. i lined up the back with one of the wall studs and luckly the floor joists ran right along the right side so i tried lining up that joist with 2 holes and drilled the other 2 on the other side. i used 6x 3 inch long 5/16" lag bolts. i then used two washers per bolt, one ~3/4" wide and one ~1 1/4 inch wide. that gave it plenty of grab on the floor and sides. i used hex head bolts and got out my big ratchet and tightened those guys down as tight as i could. there was a small gap at the bottom on the back though so i had to get a saw and razor knife and cut out a section of the floor board. now if i had room to run at it i could have probably moved it a little. due to its wedged location between my bed and desk it wasnt moving though.
also bolted my much much smaller pistol safe to the sub floor only (out of haste) and used the same bolts. suprisingly the brinks fire safe was just as easy to drill as the stack-on cabinet was... it served its purpose though and kept everything stuck down. i would try something like this if you are on a budget (time and money) and want to get it down. its not the greatest solution, but hey, i have homeowners insurance. if someone does come to take it they could take it if they wanted. ill make the jerks work for it though.
overall you should look at 2 things to secure ANY safe:
1 - the more points of contact, THE BETTER. if a safe has only one bolt it can likely be pivoted and jimmied and when that bolt fails the safe is gone. now add (in my case) 5 more bolts and you are going to have 5 times the pain in your ass after wrestling the thing around. and maybe try stagering them a little. im sure if there are 2 on bottom and 2 on back and they are all in a line that it might be a bit easier
2 - the biger the washers, THE BETTER. the 1/2" hex head wasnt enough for my application so i built up with appropriate washers all the way to 1 1/4"+. that left a VERY large foot print on the inside of the safe to prevent the bolts from pulling through
rogdigity
Member
oh, and when i did move, there were some ugly spots i had to patch. you couldnt see anything in the carpet though.
and dogs do work. i always kept a bat by my bed upstaris. if i heard the dogs bark i would wake up. if i heard a dog get shot i would have gotten my 45
and dogs do work. i always kept a bat by my bed upstaris. if i heard the dogs bark i would wake up. if i heard a dog get shot i would have gotten my 45
scythefwd
Member
you could look into using snap toggles. Many are supposed to be able to hold up to 300 lbs each. Just drill into the floor, push the snap toggle through, seat the retainer, place the safe on top and then bolt to the toggle. It is basically a one handed toggle bolt.
http://fastenmsc.stores.yahoo.net/togglebolt.html
Four of these through the floor will make your safe feel a whole lot heavier.
http://fastenmsc.stores.yahoo.net/togglebolt.html
Four of these through the floor will make your safe feel a whole lot heavier.
rogdigity
Member
i think you missed the point
i dont think anyone was aiming for 100% sacure, but rather 500% more of a pain in the ass to get the safe out. if you want to get technical then whats to stop someone from going to the lower floor and blowing a whole in the ceiling and having the safe fall into their waiting arms. i still believe that shooter was just trying to make it stick to the floor
i still say bolt it to the floor and the wall. next time i come accross a vacant run down house in nebraska im gonna go buy a stack on gun cabinet and bolt it in the closet and record how hard it really is to get it out. if it doesnt come out within 20 minutes im going to open the front up with an axe like a sardine can
scythefwd
Member
ChaoSS,
With a decent wrecking bar there isn't a setup that doesn't involve concrete that will take me more than 30 minutes to take the whole safe. rogdidity hits my point on the head. If you can get a good prybar under the safe, you will be able to pry it up. Either the floor will rip out around the toggle (which is about 2 in long X .5 inches wide) or the floor will break infront of the safe where your fulcrum is. If the floor breaks at the fulcrum, you just reach through and unscrew the dang things... if the floor rips out then your free to go. Pulling something like that through the floor though will take a little bit of grunt work. If the safe is in a closet, there might not me enough room to get good leverage.
Oh, and that 300 lbs is for drywall. Sub floor will hold a bit more. It won't hold the 900 lbs that concrete will though, so Ill split the difference and go with 400-450 lbs of tensile strength. That makes the safe feel like it weighs 1600 - 1800 lbs which makes it no longer a one man job. At that point, it will be faster to just use a sawzall and take the top off.
With a decent wrecking bar there isn't a setup that doesn't involve concrete that will take me more than 30 minutes to take the whole safe. rogdidity hits my point on the head. If you can get a good prybar under the safe, you will be able to pry it up. Either the floor will rip out around the toggle (which is about 2 in long X .5 inches wide) or the floor will break infront of the safe where your fulcrum is. If the floor breaks at the fulcrum, you just reach through and unscrew the dang things... if the floor rips out then your free to go. Pulling something like that through the floor though will take a little bit of grunt work. If the safe is in a closet, there might not me enough room to get good leverage.
Oh, and that 300 lbs is for drywall. Sub floor will hold a bit more. It won't hold the 900 lbs that concrete will though, so Ill split the difference and go with 400-450 lbs of tensile strength. That makes the safe feel like it weighs 1600 - 1800 lbs which makes it no longer a one man job. At that point, it will be faster to just use a sawzall and take the top off.
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That's right, security is an illusion.
You would be amazed how one of the cordless jobs with a diamond blade will slice through dang near anything.
There is also the worry that if someone does break in and finds your secured safe, they just come back a month later when your home and have you open it for them. I doubt they would knock and it would probably get real ugly.
bigione
Member
Hide the valubles else where and use the safe as a decoy. Make a false ceiling or false wall in a closet A determined thief will get into or take the safe.
I still like this idea best.
Seriously, my safe weighs in at about 800 if I recall correctly. I know last time I put it on my 500 pound furniture dolly I had to buy a new dolly. I've never had mine bolted down. But I'm considering doing it this time because people I don't trust have some access to the house to case me out in ways I've never had to deal with before. Fortunately, I'm on concrete, and can just hammer drill down, and bolt away. But I may even build a closet around it to make it more camouflaged. That fact that it will make it more aesthetically pleasing to my wife is an added bonus.
kda
Member
Have you given any thought to taking a few reasonable steps to make the safe reasonably hard to move and then subscribing to a good alarm service? I know I went with ADT and to entice me and get me to sign a three year package, the alarm system was installed free (or nearly so). I believe other services occasionally offer similar deals. Get a system with heat/motion sensors in appropriate rooms. They work really nicely. Very hard to defeat. By the time they get to the sensor the alarm has been triggered.
When that alarm goes off and starts emitting that loud noise (I presume you have neighbors) I don't think the average burglar is going to stick around long enough to dislodge and haul off a heavy safe that is reasonably secure. In fact the alarm will go off before they even find it.
Alarm service cost only about $360 / year and an alarm system protects other valuables around the house and even your family. You can even add fire protection if you want. Your insurance company is likely to give you a break on your household insurance premiums, mine does. Helps a little.
The Alarm Service sign out front (and back) gives notice that you do not plan to be an easy victim and the theory is casual burglars will look for easier pickings. You get stickers for the windows and patio doors ...
When that alarm goes off and starts emitting that loud noise (I presume you have neighbors) I don't think the average burglar is going to stick around long enough to dislodge and haul off a heavy safe that is reasonably secure. In fact the alarm will go off before they even find it.
Alarm service cost only about $360 / year and an alarm system protects other valuables around the house and even your family. You can even add fire protection if you want. Your insurance company is likely to give you a break on your household insurance premiums, mine does. Helps a little.
The Alarm Service sign out front (and back) gives notice that you do not plan to be an easy victim and the theory is casual burglars will look for easier pickings. You get stickers for the windows and patio doors ...
INMY01TA
Member
+1 for ADT. My alarm is set by a remote key fob with no entry delay. This lessons the amount of time anyone will have to do a quick smash and grab. I feel a safe bolted to floor and wall in conjuction with the alarm is a decent setup.
rogdigity and scythefwd, I still think toggle bolts are insufficient. I still think that toggles will still be able to be ripped out by someone using a wrecking bar, but with the proper amount of reinforcement, you can secure the safe in there so that you can not get it out with just a wrecking bar.
Obviously, anything can be taken out with the proper tools, but I figure if something can be taken out with a wrecking bar, it's not enough.
And BTW, it's not going to make it seem heavier, only make it harder to get out of the ground.
Obviously, anything can be taken out with the proper tools, but I figure if something can be taken out with a wrecking bar, it's not enough.
And BTW, it's not going to make it seem heavier, only make it harder to get out of the ground.
cottonmouth
Member
Just build a 2x6 frame the size of the bottom of the safe and bolt it to the floor then bolt the saf to the 2x6's.
J.B.
J.B.
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