Advice on IDPA vs USPSA for Beginner?

[waktasz]

You can shoot a stock gun just fine in Production. You can even win with one. Same in Single Stack. You can even shoot a Glock 35 in Limited. If you want to spend more than that you can, but it's not necessary, ESPECIALLY for a guy who has shot zero matches. To have internet fools say USPSA is just an arms race for who can have the best gear is just showing that you don't know what you're talking about.


And nobody cares about revolver.

 

[mcb]

Which ones?
Production has been diluted by a lot of allowable modifications.
Internet Experts now tell new shooters to enter their stock guns in Limited Minor so as to not burden themselves with a reload every ten shots.
Revolver had an almost instantaneous sea change as 8 shot Minor obsoleted 6 shot Major.

I think the point is just about any 9/40/45 semi-auto and 6, 7 or 8-shot revolver a new shooter might own has a place were it will be legal and competitive enough for a new shooter to learn the sport well enough to make an informed purchase of further competitive gear. You cannot say the same of IDPA. There are lots of potential handguns a new shooter might bring that would not be legal in any division and can only be shot in the "any other gun" category.

You can shoot a stock gun just fine in Production. You can even win with one. Same in Single Stack. You can even shoot a Glock 35 in Limited. If you want to spend more than that you can, but it's not necessary, ESPECIALLY for a guy who has shot zero matches. To have internet fools say USPSA is just an arms race for who can have the best gear is just showing that you don't know what you're talking about.


And nobody cares about revolver.

I care... and I think I know two or three other competitive shooters that might also care...

 

[waktasz]

Two or three sounds about right

 

[Jim Watson]

You CAN but that is not the public perception.
I have fought it here, along with "I have to practice to get good enough to "shoot comps.""
It is a chore.

 

[waktasz]

Right. That's my point. It's the public perception because of people who say things like "USPSA is just an arms race."

 

[jmorris]

I think both are an arms race as better stuff is developed, it’s used.

If you want to be on top, you have to develop a method of testing, practicing and winning.

The only hard part at that point is to stay on top and that doesn’t happen by doing the exact same thing forever or improvements will pass you by.

IDPA did have some things in their rules that kept them consistent for many years, then did a lot of changes, in all sorts of directions.

At the same time USPSA recognized the popularity of “production” or non “race” guns and created divisions for them.

That really turned IDPA over in membership as lots jumped ship and went USPSA. Now they have switched directions and gotten even closer to USPSA than they were at the beginning and upset some the folks they didn’t originally run off.

I say play both and see what group of people you would rather spend an afternoon with and go that direction. In a couple of months you’ll learn either game enough to enjoy them.

 

[Aikibiker]

One of my friends at work shoots a LOT of USPSA matches (along with various types of steel matches) so I find myself shooting that a lot as well. Matches are a lot more funwithfriends. I liked the couple IDPA matches I did shoot though.

My favorite matches are tactical rifle/two gun, but rifle ammo gets expensive fast.

 

[Jim Watson]

You can always spend more money. Three gun is fairly popular.
The PCC fad has infected IDPA and USPSA. I guess management saw the guns selling and decided to capture their shooting business.

 

[jmorris]

You can always spend more money. Three gun is fairly popular.
The PCC fad has infected IDPA and USPSA. I guess management saw the guns selling and decided to capture their shooting business.

It will be interesting to see how this effects these, pistol associations. If you’d like your name at top of the list a SS with a PCC can do a good job keeping up with a CO, MA. A master class shooter with a PPC leaves the rest of the divisions in the dust.

 

[ATLDave]

But vids of USPSA matches I have watched look pretty daunting to a newb.

Don't let that hold you back. Just go shoot a match - or, if you prefer, just show up and watch. It's not for everyone, but there's no reason to be intimidated. Also, as you're watching videos, note that most people love to post their
"good runs" - the times when things went well. For every insta-worthy vid, there's at least 5 other guys trudging through the stage, taking a jillion make-up shots and still missing, clearing a malfunction on the clock, etc.

There's a WIDE range of skills at most USPSA matches. And there's absolutely zero resentment or annoyance with the people below you on the skill ladder. I'm not mad at the guys I'm beating... I'm mad at the guys stomping me in the standings! (Not really, they've earned it, but you get my point.)

 

[ATLDave]

It will be interesting to see how this effects these, pistol associations. If you’d like your name at top of the list a SS with a PCC can do a good job keeping up with a CO, MA. A master class shooter with a PPC leaves the rest of the divisions in the dust.

PCC is working out to be very competitive with open (open's major scoring and ability to deal with tight physical locations and leans somewhat offsets other inherent long-gun advantages). Similarly, carry optics is working out to be pretty competitive with limited. Single stack and production are also relatively close to each other.

I do see the rise of PCC's and CO's having some impact on stage designs. As more and more shooters and MD's and other stage-designers have dots on their own guns, the number of genuinely kind-of-hard shots is going up. There are starting to be shots that are a real PITA with iron sights a lot more frequently than 2 years ago. I think iron-sight shooters should remind MD's from time to time that, just because a PCC shooter can no-stress a 40 yard 6" steel plate doesn't mean that most iron-sight shooters can do that. They'll eventually hit it, but it's not fun to have to do that too much. I'm not saying that level of shot difficulty is ubiquitous in matches yet, but there's more of it than there was.

 

[Jim Watson]

It will be interesting to see how this effects these, pistol associations. If you’d like your name at top of the list a SS with a PCC can do a good job keeping up with a CO, MA. A master class shooter with a PPC leaves the rest of the divisions in the dust.

Yes, it is a completely different thing. You have the inherent accuracy of a shoulder weapon with optical sight; plus a magazine capacity that will get you through any stage without reloading (unless required by the CoF), plus exemption or non-applicability of many other pistol rules like the draw and turn to start. Plus the expectation that the RO is going to caddy for you as you take out the chamber flag to LAMR.
It is also an easy avenue to reentry and twice the shooting for your travel. I don't see people shooting two pistol divisions, but pistol and PCC is pretty common. A couple of weeks ago, I saw a good shot take first and second place overall, PCC, then pistol.

I am not yet seeing the PCC effect on stage design that Dave describes, though.
What I am seeing... or hearing about, I don't PCC - is dedicated carbine matches.

 

[ATLDave]

Yes, it is a completely different thing.

Which, of course, is why the official position is that different divisions (including PCC as compared to any handgun) don't actually compete with one another. Of course, at many local/club matches, overall standings are still looked at extensively because there's not enough "juice" in any one division to really make a match of just that division. Even though that's what the rules say.

non-applicability of many other pistol rules like the draw and turn to start.

Honestly, this is the thing that has most annoyed me about how USPSA approached PCC. All the other divisions face a common challenge: having to start every stage by getting a grip on the gun. How well or poorly you do this has a major impact on how well the rest of the stage goes! By rule, a handgun shooter cannot ever be allowed to start with the gun in their hands (for safety reasons???). But with PCC, all that goes out the window. The most common (lazy) start positions are with the gun in a firing grasp with both hands. It's common to allow the PCC guys to even start with the third point of contact in place. Everyone else shoots the same match, with the same stage briefing and same challenges... the only extra challenge for divisions is that imposed by the equipment itself. But PCC is special. They get their own rules - not as to equipment, but as to procedure and start positions.

This annoys me. I have accepted that that's the way it is, and that it is unlikely to change. But it still annoys me.

 

[GEM]

I'm wondering how the PCC matches run in states with mag bans. We've kidded some PCC folks here who run an IDPA stage with a 30 round mag, while we pistol guys are reloading. So in places like NY, they must run 10 rounders?

 

[waktasz]

yup

 

[egd]

ATLDave, I am a pcc shooter but I agree with you about the uprange starts. I see no reason why a pcc can't be held vertically facing uprange and brought down after turning to a downrange position. I guess some would say that it would be a subjective call as to when the pcc was started down-whether it was downrange or not. But to me that's no different than saying when a pistol shooter started his draw. Was he far enough around?
I just re-read your post and realized you didn't actually say anything about uprange starts, but that was what came to mind as I read it initially. As for starting holding the gun, I do feel that stock on belt, muzzle downrange is a reasonable alternative to a draw. I would even be ok with adding that weak hand be relaxed at side.

 

[waktasz]

If you're doing that then you're going to have to start making exceptions to the 180 rule for PCCs. No thank you.

 

[jmorris]

Rereading the OP, I would just get online and find the two closest clubs to you and drive out there and watch a match.

After all your going to be spending many hours we these folks and you want to get into a group that works for you.

There are lots of firearm games out there some fun for some, some fun for others but all can be ruined by the folks you have to hangout with all afternoon.

You get the right group of folks and you will have lifelong friends and that’s priceless. You get the wrong group and it seems more like work than play and while I shoot competitively to win, if it’s no fun, well, it’s not enjoyable, might as well do the stuff the wife wants me to do.

Some of the PPC stuff gives me a giggle though.



Reminded me of the old guy in some teen movie knocking stuff off the table with himself.

 

[egd]

If you're doing that then you're going to have to start making exceptions to the 180 rule for PCCs. No thank you.

I don't understand why that would be the case. If the gun starts down before it's turned around past the 180 it's a dq, same as if the pistol is drawn before the 180.

 

[waktasz]

It's not the same because a holstered pistol is a lot different from a loaded rifle being held in someone's hands.

 

[egd]

It is a loaded pistol held in someone's hand. 180 is 180 regardless of weapon. I just don't see where it would be any less safe.

 

[ATLDave]

If you're doing that then you're going to have to start making exceptions to the 180 rule for PCCs. No thank you.

A better approach is to have the PCC on uprange starts begin on a table or barrel or other platform. Pistol shooters turn and draw, PCC shooters turn and pick up. No changes to 180 rule, more consistent with the challenge posed to all other competitors.

This can be done by MD's now, but the PCC start positions in classifiers should have adopted this approach. By modifying the classifiers to have PCC starting facing downrange with the gun in their hands, USPSA set the expectation among PCC shooters that they will never have to deal with uprange stuff. With those expectations set, they get very offended when an MD does something that violates their sense of entitlement, even when it's entirely within the rules (such as my example). They will indignantly say (usually online) stuff like "PCC is not a crime" and other non sequiturs.

 

[egd]

The only way I'd say that is fair is if everyone started from surrender position. If a pistol shooters hand is relaxed at side then his hand is much closer to the gun than the pcc shooter.
But then again, as I and many others have said, we're a separate division and not shooting against pistols anyway, so.....

You're right about setting expectations.

 

[ATLDave]

As for starting holding the gun, I do feel that stock on belt, muzzle downrange is a reasonable alternative to a draw. I would even be ok with adding that weak hand be relaxed at side.

It's a "reasonable alternative," but it is absolutely faster and more consistent. I've seen a few GM-level PCC shooters with lasers on their guns actually take a shot at steel (and hit it) on the way from the belt to the shoulder. But, mainly, there's no such thing as "missing the grip" on the draw. All of us who are handgun shooters have shot stages where we didn't get our grip right on the draw, and either shot the stage with a janky grip or took time to fix it before firing the first shot. If we could start with even our strong hand on the gun in the holster, we'd never miss our grip again (at least with the strong hand). But, by rule, this is considered an unsafe(!?!) starting position and cannot ever be allowed in the stage briefing. Ever.

In designing stages, I often have PCC shooters start with their strong hand dangling, while holding the barrel with their weak hand and stock on belt. That is a much better approximation of a downrange, loaded, relaxed-at-sides start position. That provides a similar level of challenge to the PCC shooters. But, again, many PCC shooters get triggered by this, and will say there is something "illegal" about it, even though it is clearly legal and has been blessed by DNROI. Once again, USPSA set expectations among PCC shooters when they thoughtlessly adopted PCC classifier start positions that were so radically different from all other divisions.

We're drifting pretty far from the OP's topic... actually, really far. I find the PCC discussion interesting. Maybe we should start a new thread.

 

[ATLDave]

The only way I'd say that is fair is if everyone started from surrender position.

Most uprange starts where the shooter is in the shooting area are surrender position. But, with an uprange start, hand position doesn't seem to matter very much... you're going to have the hands moving to the gun while you turn regardless, and can't start pulling the pistol out for at least the first half of the draw. There's a commonly-shot classifier with 2 strings - one with an uprange start, one downrange. The shooter has to start one with hands relaxed at sides, one with wrists above shoulders - but they get to pick which hand position goes with which facing direction. The CW is to do the hands-up position with the uprange start, precisely because the extra time spent getting the hands to the gun is concurrent with the time spent turning, so it doesn't impact the overall draw/first-shot time.

As for it being "fair," I'm not sure that's really the right word/parameter/concept. At least officially, there's no inter-division competition, so it's not fairness. It's about providing the same kind of challenges. I've been surprised that so many PCC shooters seem to want aspects of the game removed for them.