After training: Legal issues need clarification

[357to44]

Hi,

My friends in a near-by large Metro just completed a safety training before applying for their permits. There are a couple legal issues that they say were not explained clear enough.

An instructor suggested acquainting a criminal lawyer just in case one would be needed for after-shooting defense. He could only refer to those whose experience is in defending police officers. I would think it’s a little different specialty. And how could anyone make defending permit owners his specialty with so little “activity†going around (especially where they live, one of “just liberated Statesâ€)? Any experience you can share?

I monitored a discussion on this board related to when and from where “an actor†should report on their shooting another person. What is a legal paradigm here? If it’s like with traffic accidents, near miss won’t count. Or one is under obligation to report any shot directed to another human? Though this might vary from State to State what would be a general approach?

Thank you, guys

 

[deanf]

He could only refer to those whose experience is in defending police officers.

Sounds like a good suggestion to me. In many states, the laws governing the use of deadly force are the same for police officer or non-police officer.

Or one is under obligation to report any shot directed to another human? Though this might vary from State to State what would be a general approach?

I seem to remember something like "no man shall be compelled to be a witness against himself . . ." Don't go volunteering any information to the police, even if you think you committed no crime. You could call to report the incident that caused you to make the decision to drop the hammer, but I wouldn't go volunteering that you were armed or fired a shot. Sounds like a good question for that lawyer you're going to look up.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

It is a good idea to identify a lawyer with experience in self defense shootings if you carry a CCW. Depending on where you live, you may not have access to a Perry Mason skilled lawyer, but get the best available. If possible, put the lawyer on retainer in the event you need his services some day. If that is not feasible, at least stick his name and telephone number in your wallet with your CCW.

As for reporting incidents, someone made a comment in a recent thread that sums it up very well. Even if you just display your firearm to stop a possible attack, remember there are only two boxes on the crime report. One is for the "victim" and one is for the "suspect(s)." If the other guy decides to report the incident, guess which box your name goes in.

 

[Baba Louie]

Attorneys are to get you out ASAP and to answer questions for you. Once you're back home, you can use your attorney to help you find a specialist should you and atty. feel the need. You'll deal with both Criminal and Civil liability issues more than likely. Tailor your legal needs accordingly.

Ask a gun store owner if any of his clients are attorneys. Find out who does defend the police officers, request a 30 minute interview. Take an LFI Class.

"Everything you say (and do) can and will be used against you"... so do the right thing, call in the crime, state you're the victim of the crime, your location, gunshots fired, criminal last seen wearing/heading, send help... then call your attorney. If injured, go to hospital, if not go directly to jail.

Remember your attorney, any attorney for bail, interrogation counsel, etc. These things take time and money. You'll be expected to pay well for good, timely counsel.

Self Defense is an "Affirmative Defense" and you and your attorney will need to show why you were forced into using it in response to definite and illegal lethal force. I'm sure that every cop, prosecuting D.A. and judge have heard the old "but it was self defense"... so make sure you're in the right and all the evidence points to the obvious. A witness or two can help or it can also harm you (are they your friends or "his' friends?).

Regarding reporting a DGU (defensive gun use), generally, if you pulled the trigger legally, morally, whateverly; and had to use lethal force as a victim against a lethal attack, you'd better be one of the first to call it in, cause sure as all getout, someone else will too. Righteous men don't flee (or so the theory goes). Wise men move towards cover. Even if no one is injured and BG runs off. Report it, specially if gunshots were fired. You're liable for every bullet you fired. Pray that no innocent by-standers were harmed, cause that's now a different case entirely.

Adios

 

[357to44]

You'll deal with both Criminal and Civil liability issues more than likely.

Thank you for your suggestions, (though “…go directly to jail†does not sound very optimistic). Things become less mysterious on the issue of minimizing Criminal liability. Are there any threads on this Board dealing with the strategy to minimize Civil exposure? Otherwise, I would appreciate if somebody could elaborate on this specific issue as well.

 

[Coronach]

El Tejon? Paging Mr. E. L. Tejon...

 

[El Tejon]

Alright, already, geez.

357, you are very wise to be proactive about these issues. I would urge you to do a few things:

1. Find a criminal defense attorney that has done this type of case before. Not all attorneys, like doctors, do the same work. Several of my good friends sit in offices filled with cherrywood and review wills or merger agreements. They have never been inside a courtroom, let alone completed a jury trial. They may know who the Prosecuting Attorney is, but not the deputy in charge of a certain court.

Schedule an appointment for an hour. Send your questions to him and then sit down and go over the answers. Expect a lot of "it depends."

There is an enormous amount of misinformation in the gun culture. A good analogy is grade schoolers and sex. Don't expect the answers to match up exactly with "what the law says" or think it says or what your good buddy told you about what happens in Tejas or whenever (no, really, it happens. I tell people what will happen if they shoot someone stealing their hubcaps in Indianapolis and they turn around and tell me about how you can machine gun them in the back at high noon in Tejas).

2. Find an insurance defense attorney. Schedule an hour. Go over your homeowners' policy. See about intentional torts. Ask about the reasonable man standard, duty of care, et al.

Limit your exposure, would putting your house in tenancy by the entirities help in your state? Find out. Bring in a list of questions.

3. Take LFI-1. This class is the biggest bang for the buck, invaluable to all gun owners.

Remember, a lot of this is "it depends", aka fact sensitive. Your state, your county, your Prosecuting Attorney, the circumstances, are all factors in the stew.

I'm not sure if I understand your question regarding a "near miss." You just used a lethal weapon against a fellow human being and you wonder if you should report it?

How would you know if it was a "near miss" or not? Shooting human beings is not the same as shooting cardboard at the range. People can absorb multiple hits without flinching. How will you know it was a miss or a hit?

The more you know about fighting, the less you will want to do it. Those that enter into combat have already lost--it is then a matter of degree.

 

[357to44]

El,

Thank you for highlighting all those potential negative consequences.

My questions, though, was more basic and “naïveâ€. What is the usual logic behind finding properly self-defending people liable in Civil Court (with a couple examples or references to TFL/THR or other Web-based proceedings)?

You could call to report the incident that caused you to make the decision to drop the hammer,…

It seems like “could†became “should†in El’s post (part 3).

On the "near miss" topic: could I conside a definite “miss†witnessing formation of new bullet holes exactly numbering the shots count?

BTW, I've heard that Homestead Exemptions is used for asset protection in MN (Tenancy by the Entireties won't work there).