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Airgun forums have sure changed!

Discussion in 'Air Guns' started by ZVP, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. ZVP

    ZVP Member

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    Health matters tookme away from the Forums and wow what a difference!it seems Springers are treated like antiques compared to PCP's!
    The PCP requires a very powerful xpensive support group of equipment!Hundreds of dollars compared to "FREE" air that Springers use! Yes learningbto shoot a Springer proficiently takes work but all you need is a rifle and pellets and maybe a Scope to spend a lifetime of shooting fun !
    Seems there are very few dedicated Springer Forums anymore
    !
    I don't know why the PCP crowd dosen't just shoot with powder?
    I've shot airguns of all sorts since 1959 and just can't warm up to PCP's as airguns!
    Sorry if I stepped on any toes!
    Dave
     
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  2. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    I've resisted going to PCPs because I like the self-contained aspect of springers. Plus, I guess, I just like the idea of how they work.

    I don't know if I'll ever get a PCP. If I do, I'll almost certainly try to get one that has an integral moderator.
     
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  3. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    I only own springers and use yhe to teach each grand kid safety and marksmenship
     
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  4. Ohen Cepel

    Ohen Cepel Member

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    Yes, PCP's get all the love now. I had several and just never warmed to them, but I messed up by getting powerful/loud ones which was a mistake. Also, I LOVE the simplicity of air guns and I found nothing simple about the PCP's. Scuba tanks, compressors, etc. Loved being able to walk for hours with a BB gun as a kid plinking along the way and so long as I could still pump the gun I could keep going.

    They have their place but aren't for me.
     
  5. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    I am of the same mind. If you want the power of a PCP, especially the larger caliber ones and you are in the states I cannot imagine why you wouldn’t just go powder burner barring some specific circumstances.

    I prefer my spring rifles and pistols with the occasional SSP pistol thrown in.
     
  6. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    Yes, they have changed, I said years ago, I would not go to the Dark Side (PCP) and that has never changed. Springers will be around for even. And really do not want to post the many lengthy post I have posted for so many years. Springers have Heart. You can feel their life. Nothing beats a custom tuned Springer. Just something about them. True craftsmenship.
     
  7. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    Springers have soul.

    IMG_9453_Pro_sport_1_zps5feydvk8.jpg

    IMG_58682_zpsbc6c7b4c.jpg
     
  8. darkcloud

    darkcloud Member

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    Someone is always trying to make a better mouse trap. Matters not if it works Really is through promotion you will always have buyers to gain a real or perceived advantage.
     
  9. stringnut

    stringnut Member

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    Both have advantages. I do not shoot my airguns a ton partially due to a lack of time. I can get by with my hill pump for the pcp just fine. However, if a lot of shooting is done, that could get tiring in hurry. Will probably get a a small multi stage compressor after I retire. I like being to shoot ten times without doing anything but manipulating the bolt.
    The spring guns are cheaper and everyone is right about not having to screw around with whatever air source you use. Nothing better than going to shoot and finding the wife has run the varmint gun dry! Never had that issue with a spring gun. The biggest issue is that the wife cannot cock even a moderately powered spring gun due to shoulder issues. I have a hard time getting the hold correct and my accuracy varies widely. Those that have mastered it seem to switch between firearms and airguns with no issue. In the 22 and 25 caliber I think the advantage is definitely spring power. I don't want to due all that pumping for 15 shots!
     
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  10. tallpaul

    tallpaul Member

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    I started with a quality springer and have a bunch and I got into the pcp a few years back... I personally have room for both. As has been mentioned they both have their place and both have advantages and disadvantages. If I had to rid myself of one or the other springers- quality springers would remain :) but for longer range- accurate shooting with higher power for pesting larger critters the PCP is just awesome. As far as appeal over powder burners? ammo is cheaper once ya have your "Air" and no cases powder or primers are needed. I can also cast my own slugs for the bigger stuff. Even for target use in low power guns it is easier on your body when shooting etc.

    Don't be a fuddy ior a dinosaur- shoot what ya like and try the new stuff ya might be surprised :p
     
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  11. chicharrones

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    I like airguns in pump, springer, and CO2. PCP is at my cutoff point to move on to firearms as well.
     
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  12. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    I have quite a number of high end Springers. All custom tuned by the well Known MZ. I told him once I was looking for a Gun for my son. He called up one day, and said I have just tuned a HW30MKll. This is a classic, old yes, but Weilrauch quality.

    This little gun is one of the softest, precise shooters you could imagine. My son and I shot it so many times, Just a pleasure.

    betI2iM.jpg

    One of my favorites that need no tune and perfection right out of the box is the Walther LCV. Super quality, super quiet , super accurate.

    IRLnbBy.jpg



    MZ after tuning the great Beeman C1 aka (MZ is a well know custom tuner. Born in Argentina, engineer in US, has some of the finest Air rifles I have ever shot or seen)


    5WsvZGN.jpg

    Here is a C1 like mine. They had a "cult like following".

     

    Attached Files:

  13. alfsauve

    alfsauve Member

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    I've been watching the PCP tsunami develop for a while. And while the appeal of accuracy and power of the PCPs is a draw, the support cost is a problem Also since I don't shoot my air guns every week, or month, I really like springers because they are always ready to go. My CO2 will invariably need a new cartridge and PCPs, I imagine if you don't shoot for several months, may also need a fill-up.

    <my history>
    Started when a friend turned me on to Beeman and I acquired an R7 in .177.

    Then I decided I need something more for squirrels and other pests so I set out to get a .22. Beeman was pushing his 5mm at the time as the end-all, be-all caliber, and he wouldn't sell the HW77 in .22lr. Claimed the gun didn't have enough "spring" for that heavy a bullet. I quickly found an importer that would sell me an HW77 in .22 and bought one. (A real one, not the dummy down UK version.) A heavy, underlever for sure but well worth it. Super accurate if you do your part. Local range owner had a "bring something unusual night" and I took my HW77 with a 15x scope. They all laughed until we started shooting.
     
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  14. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    I have one decent springer, one multi-pump PN, one single-pump PN, and probably half a dozen or more CO2 units (including my Umarex MP40 full-auto.)

    For me as of late, CO2 is where I've been finding the fun.
     
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  15. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

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    I haven't seen anyone mention the pneumatic piston rifles (I think that's what they're called).
    You know, the same principle that holds up your car hood or lift gate or did those not go over very big? I almost considered buying one.
     
  16. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    Not sure what you mean by UK dummy down version. The UK has a 12lb limit which actually produces excellent results. Jim Macarri, the Great and notorious After Market Spring designer once made a statement that went like this. "Find a nice 12 to 13lb rated spring and you will have one mighty fine shooting Air Rifle, without all the problems, breakages etc. My Friend MZ the Tuner was of that Philosophy as well. Over the course of years, I became a firm believer.
     
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  17. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I really enjoy shooting cheap air guns whether they are springers or pumps.
    But getting into PCP or bulk CO2 is not really as expensive as most would think.

    A used full size scuba tank can be purchased on Craig's List for as little as $50, just don't buy one made before 1990.
    When I bought a brand new scuba tank years ago I paid $125.
    I'd be lucky to get $50 for it now even though it still looks like new.
    The cost for fills at a dive shop is nominal, perhaps about $5-$10 for a fill that can last for years depending on the size of the tank and the shop.
    The required tank inspections are a little costly but not prohibitive.
    A visual test must be done yearly at a cost of $20, but if the tank is filled before the year is up, it doesn't need to be done until
    the next fill which could be years down the road. So that could average out to paying for an inspection every 2,3,4 years or more
    depending on much you shoot and the size of the tank.
    Then a combination hydro/visual test needs to be done every 5 years which costs $35, which can also be delayed if you fill up the tank before the period is up.
    So a person could conceivably only pay for one hyrdo/visual test every 9 years, and that also includes the yearly visual test.

    I only got into PCP because I bought a match PCP pistol to compete in an area NRA sanctioned International Air Pistol league.
    People shoot matches with all types of air pistols, including Daisy 747's which I've seen the highest scores obtained with in the
    hands of master class shooters.
    However some of us would rather not move our hand off the grip in between shots, and PCP allows for cocking & loading
    with the off-hand without any need to change the grip while loading. [Which is the same with CO2 pistols]

    I also bought a relatively inexpensive Daisy/Avanti CO2 low velocity target rifle for indoor target shooting at home.
    The deal that I got from a friend on an old, huge 80 lb. CO2 welding tank was almost like a gift since he no longer had a use for it.
    I paid him $20 for it.
    All I needed to do was to have a siphon tube installed in the tank which brings the liquid CO2 up from the bottom of the tank.
    It cost me about $90 total to have the siphon tube installed and the tank filled for a virtual lifetime supply of bulk CO2.
    This tank is almost 5 feet tall and heavy as sin.
    It only needs an inspection every 5 years or when it gets refilled after that if ever.

    From what I understand, some PCP guns are dual fuel, and can be filled with CO2.
    And the industrial gas company here also sells small CO2 tanks that can be swapped out whenever a fill is needed just
    like they do with propane tanks at many retailers.
    If a person chooses to go the CO2 route, the cost to swap an empty tank for a full one is pretty inexpensive.

    The only other expense is buying a yolk to transfer the PCP or CO2 to your gun which attaches the fill tank to
    the gun tank via a fitting or a hose, and perhaps a simple adaptor fitting to match the threads. Cost is perhaps $50 - $75 for a PCP scuba yolk,
    or even less for a CO2 fitted connector hose from Daisy. For my gun it was about $25- $35 at the time.
    And these items can sometimes be bought used, even if the prices have increased since I bought mine.

    I'm not interested in buying expensive PCP guns, my match pistol cost enough but was for a special purpose.
    But there's also expensive springers for sale, and when the costs are all added up, the difference in cost isn't really that great.
    Especially if buying used tanks or guns, since once a person is set up for it, it's just a one time outlay.

    I still prefer to shoot the cheap springers and pneumatics for fun.
    I have enough .22LR guns to not want to invest in expensive PCP guns or springers for that matter.
    But it's nice to have bulk fill PCP or CO2 available if needed.
    And if a person has an industrial gas supply company nearby, buying a small CO2 tank is a very affordable option
    as is buying a used scuba tank.
    I'll bet that people have a hard time giving away used scuba tanks on Craig's List.
    One of my sons is a certified diver and he bought used tanks and equipment that was dirt cheap.
    So I feel that the cost factor is pretty much an excuse.
    I don't blame people for not wanting to spend a lot of money on a PCP gun, just like I don't want to buy expensive springers.
    The cheap ones are good enough for me.
    I think that a brand new Chinese CO2 target rifle with match sights cost me about $160, not much more than the cost of a springer at Walmart.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
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  18. ZVP

    ZVP Member

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  19. alfsauve

    alfsauve Member

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    I'm sure there are many fine air guns under the 12# UK limit, but I was going for a hunting .22. Weihrauch made the HW77 with the more powerful spring and I just didn't want lower powered UK version.
     
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  20. ZVP

    ZVP Member

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    First ;
    Marcelo!
    Yes I've known him for years and he's a real top Tuner!


    Arcticap, you make good points and really got into PCP inexpensively!
    I have g
    The Big Springers and ones like the HW30S plus a Daisy SSP 9series. I had a bloodclot in the arm and frankly my big guns are just too much. However I can't justify a PCP no way!
    I had Mac-1 in LA totallyhot-up my pet Crosman 180 and I justrun it on powerlets. 17 shots perpwerlet but a pocketful makes for a lot of shootin!
    The power is awesome!Tim built the rifle totally by hand (old model valveing) so itcost a bit but worth every cent!
    Springers are ny first love though.
    You're right, to each his own for private reasons...
    Be safe guys!
    Dave
     
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  21. tallpaul

    tallpaul Member

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    Scuba tanks are of limited usefulness forsporting pcp... even the lower psi air rifles dont get many fills off of a cheap 3000 psi scuba tank.Most airgunners go the 4400 or more psi carbon fiber scba tank stuff... you get morefills before a refill on the tank is needed etc... it needs some education to learn for sure. I got lucky and found a couple compressors early on in my pcp journey....

    as far as the UK and lower powered guns go- I agree with the smooth firing and accuracyfor most aorgun uses... here in the states we have always liked more power form hunting etc. Some of my favorite airguns are tuned old school hw50-55 -hw30 and FWB 124 air rifles.... just easy- pure fun :)
     
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  22. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    ZVP, do you remember when on the Diana forum, there was the big debate going on concerning what was the better after market spring, Jim Macarri's or the New company Vortek? I talked to Tom at Vortek and asked him why it was making different kits for a number of rifles, but had not made one for the every so popular R7? He later contacted me and said "Your ON". If you send me your R7 I will develop a spring. Well I sent him up my beloved R7 Santa Rosa. He kept the gun for 6 months. Then at Christmas, I got a package in the mail. It was the R7 with the first Vortek Spring. Gosh, I wish you could shoot this gun. The noise is so quiet, and the gun so smooth. Cocking effort reduced and the FPS increased at the same time.
    Tom, even completely re-blued the gun and it looked great. He wanted to buy it off me, but obviously I could not part with it. He was very fond of the Beeman C1's and I had come across another one and sent that up to him.
    I will be forever grateful to Tom a Vortek and of course my good friend Marcel aka MZ.
    I spent many hours in MZ's shop drinking fine whiskey and smoking cigars and listening to music while he tuned guns. He would always show me how to do this art. But, Art is Art and I am no Artist. He is a true Craftsman. And either you are born with it, or you are not.
    It is a shame many powder burners cannot get into this beautiful sport. There is a lot more to it then they realize.
     
  23. fpgt72

    fpgt72 Member

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    I am in the camp that finds anything above say 30 just flat stupid, just use powder....unless for some reason you can't. Why bother buying an air rifle that will fling a 40+ "bullet" that costs 10X what a basic savage axis costs.
     
  24. alfsauve

    alfsauve Member

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    And the reason is: In my county discharge of firearms is prohibit except at authorized ranges and in self-defense. BUT air guns are not considered firearms. Now the hunting laws don't allow you to take deer, but most all small game is...uh,.... fair game with an air gun. I kill off rats, especially those cute brown ones with stripes, and I've taken rabbit and squirrel with my springer.
     
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  25. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

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    I'll ask again, does anyone shoot the pneumatics and what is the general consensus of them, good, bad or same as the springers?
    Are they quieter, shoot harder or softer or about the same as the springers?
     
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