Airsoft pistol as a training tool?

[Smith357]

Since I live in the city and can't get out to the range as much as I would like I picked up an Airsoft pistol so that I could keep my chops up at home. I got a copy of a S&W PC 945c and have been in the garage shooting like crazy for the last two days. I was really taken aback with the overall construction and accuracy of this little pistol. It is definatly not a toy. It has an adjustable trigger and a lot of metal parts. Considering the price of a real 945c this thing was dirt cheap at 1 tenth the price.

I made a BB trap from an old computer box and the plastic BBs can't penetrate the double layer cardboard and a few old towels. Pictured is a target with 100 rounds through it, at the full lenght of my garage, about 22 feet wall to wall.


Does anyone else use an Airsoft pistol as a training tool or am I a complete freak?

 

[ArmedBear]

I thought you were nuts until I saw the target.

I got an Airsoft for casual urban target practice, but my experinces with it were frustrating at best.

I suppose I got one that was too cheap. It is far from accurate.

Where did you get that pistol and how much did it cost? Seems like a GREAT training tool!

 

[mbs357]

Yes indeed, airsoft rocks.
My problem is that the ones I want cost just about as much as an actual pistol...so I have a hard time justifying them. =)
I still need one to shoot bugs off my ceiling this summer, though.

 

[defender48]

So I’m not alone, I use the Diana Model 24 to hunt mice in my garage. With its caliber .177 arrowhead bullets, and lots of patience.
They are all down, and now I’m looking for new challenge

 

[bratch]

I have a Caspian model 1911 airsoft. At 15' I can put 5 shots into an inch. I'd be using it more buit the valve is leaking and I haven't had it repaired yet.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Whatcha got there? Looks like a PHX Baby Hi Capa.

I still play airsoft. At the moment all I have is an ICS MP5 riced out so bad you don't even want me to post a picture of the thing, and a KWA Glock 18 with some bits and bobs bolted to it.

I'm a big fan of the HFC (also known as PHX, WE, and Dragon depending on who you ask...) full metal guns, especially their M9 clone and the Hi Capa series. Impressively built, very accurate guns, especially considering the price on most of them.

Bratch: Might want to dig this.

 

[Low-Sci]

Depends on the training...

I have a handful of airsoft guns, all of them are in my posession because they were a cheaper alternative to a real gun that I would probably not shoot very often.

This weekend, I went to a gunshow and was considering buying an AK-type rifle. After lots and lots of evaluation, finding none that weren't severely overpriced and also finding out that buying an AK at all is a total crap shoot because there are so many out there, I bought something I can use much more readily: a select-fire airsoft M4.

I can shoot it indoors. Can't do that with an AK. I can use the full-automatic function. Probably won't ever be able to do that with a real gun. I can practice against moving, intelligent targets who shoot back and will have a drink with me when we're done. I can get physical exercise out of the same scenarios, depending on how we decide to practice. That develops reaction time, muscle memory, and also insight that you won't gain at a target range punching paper. Insight into how to array your gear, how to take a corner if you have to, even teaches you things about your house that you didn't know before. Dangerous angles, where the noisy bits are, all kinds of things.

For a civilian, I actually think an airsoft gun is a fantastic practice tool and they're also a hell of a lot of fun. And cheaper than simunition force-on-force training. Not as effective, but still a good learning tool.

They're accurate enough for indoor training, which for most people is probably plenty sufficient. And if nothing else, they're a good time.

 

[Nortonics]

My garage training setup:

- Umarex/Walther CP99
- Fobus Kydex holster for Walther P99 - needed a little unnoticeable modification to make it a perfect fit, and perfect draw.
- CED 8000 shot timer
- Army Surplus wool blanket as a backstop

Very effective practice from fast draw to tactical. Single or double action. Trigger is incredibly good and breaks about 5 lbs. in single action mode. Incredibly accurate detail and all metal. Using the thick wool blanket allows for setting targets at just about any conceivable angle, just about anywhere. Accuracy (rifled barrel) is .5" (or better) at 25' with standard match pellets. Chrono's at 330 fps consistently - yet can't make it through the wool blanket.

I went with the .177 caliber pellet over Airsoft simply because there just is not yet enough quality gear and parts in the US yet. Didn't like the idea of buying a $300+ quality Airsoft gun (Western) only to have to send it to Hong Kong if it broke (not kidding). From what I determined anything at $150 or lower in the gas blowback Airsoft arena was destined for the trash heap within a year.

The only real resource I could find in using Airsoft tactically is over on the M1911.org forum. Not super active, but getting better with time:

M1911.org forum - Project Airsoft

 

[Coltdriver]

The more you shoot, and shoot well, the better you will shoot. It does not matter what you shoot. As long as you are familiar with what you are shooting at the time.

My son is in the military and plays airsoft with and against some Army special ops people. He has learned everything from clearing a room to some very effective tactics in the field. The Army spec ops people practice with the Airsoft stuff all the time.

I don't think your crazy. I did think my son was a little nuts when he told me what he paid for his Airsoft H&K smg but we all got hobbies and they all get expensive sooner or later.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Bleargh, CP99! I went through a few of those. Not my cup of tea, the double action thing.

Dump that silly thing and get the CP99 compact. It's true blowback semiauto. With a decocker. I picked one up on a whim after seeing it in the NRA mag's new products dealie. Still need to find some spare mags for it.

 

[Smith357]

Whatcha got there? Looks like a PHX Baby Hi Capa.

It's a KWA M954c patterned after the S&W 945c single stack 1911 style compact. I bought it locally at AirsoftArms for $109 because it was the first decent compact pistol I saw. The big fat full size military style seem to be popular. My hands don't fit well around a double stack grip, and it's puropse was for CCW type draw training drills and some target plinking.

 

[kennyboy]

Air guns are far from the real thing. However, I do use a Crossman 1008B .177cal to work on drawing, technique, etc. without the cost of actual pistol ammo. The gun is single and double action and uses CO2. It is extremely reliable and surprisingly accurate. Additionally, it is basically the same in appearance as the S&W model from which it was designed. In conclusion, airguns can be used for training. The air soft (6mm plastic) guns that I have encountered have been inaccurate junk, but can be used for drawing and carrying techniques.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

KWA M954c

Ah, I must have gotten confused when you mentioned metal parts. Isn't the bodywork on those guys plastic?

Those HFC Hi Capas are all over the place these days because there are about a squillion variants (different slides, different colors, different grips...) and they get rebadged a lot. But they're good guns.

They make a compact, too. It's got a doublestack frame, but every part on that thing except the nozzle and the grips is metal.

Cold, unforgiving metal.

 

[Smith357]

Isn't the bodywork on those guys plastic?

yea, I suppose they use the same internal steel frame with a few differnt plastic or pot metal shells.

 

[Wesker]

If you want to be proficient at Airsoft guns, practice with Airsoft guns. If you want to be proficient with real guns, practice with real guns.

Thats the best advice I can offer.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

A good airsoft replica will function just like its 'real' counterpart (I can hold my airsoft gun in my hand, how does that make it not 'real', anyway?) only less so.

I think that's about the best description I can offer.

Recoil is lighter, the amount of force needed to rack the slide is lighter. Everything else can be pretty spot on other than obvious facets like loading the magazines. As far as draw, aim, and even heft are concerned these aspects can be identical. Or not, if you have a cheapo gun.

Me? I like fooling with the things. I don't think I've learned too much kung-fu chop-socky from messing with the things, but I can ceartainly draw and aim pretty quick minus the risk of putting a hole in my foot (or otherwise) if I bite it.

 

[Low-Sci]

My point was more like...

Yes, practice with real guns will make you more proficient with them. However, some of us aren't so affluent as to be able to afford large quantities of practice with the real thing.

Of course Airsoft guns are inaccurate. They're 6mm smoothbore muskets firing a .12 grain projectile. However, for distances like, say, the back of the kitchen to the front door, its as accurate as need be to teach you a couple of lessons on the cheap. Lessons you might not want to attempt with a live firearm no less.

We can't all afford a week-long trip to Gunsite.

 

[hub]

i understand both real vs air but honestly. i played paintball last week and i was really suprised. i been shooting pistols, rifles, and shotguns since i was big enough to hold them. i been through all sorts of combat training in the marines, blanks, air, laser, and honestly i think paintball was the most realistic training i have done. it one thing to simulate its another to really have projectiles flying at you 300 fps. you can see it coming you just can move fast enough. thats the best i can explain. i had a friend comment on how 5 15 year old kids smoked a local police group at a few games. of course the police said it was crap but hey, they got marked and none of the kids did. so whats that say. they were using the same weapons, they had the same bunkers, they had the same number of people. they were just out gunned by kids. ok i know it sounds like crap but these kids were good, they played all the time and the cops didnt have a chance. i dont think if they had (real guns) it would have made a difference because they knew how to use their cover, knew when to advance to get the right angles, and knew when to strike. the police just sat there in a bunker waiting to get taken out, one by one, and thats what happend. anyone that has been in the military has learned the same skilles but probably has not had much real time experience in using them effectively. thats why i think it is so effective. i have always thought of my self as a good shooter with good tactics and would always favor well in combat. well if war was saturday at the paintball course i would have died 4 times and thats pretty good compared to most. i say if nothing else its an eye opener, and could be very good training for law enforcement and military. not to metion all you old heads who think you are good. get back out there, its fun, you dont have to be in good shape. practice your draws and practice your shots under pressure. we wont give you crap hell some of the best people i seen out there was over 50. i had a ref watch me for a game and wanted him to tell me what he seen i did wrong. i didnt expect him to tell me i didnt do good since i was always one of the last ones standing but when it came down to it i really could have improved my game. well anyway if you are to scared to try it for yourself flame on im ready.

 

[hub]

and yes i shoot my trailside,my glock and my kimber every week for practice, i just think this is good training for anyone and its fun too. costs about the same. $20 bucks for course all day and free air, 20 for half case (1000) of paintballs. and the best is you actually get to shoot at real targets some of which are smart ass kids.

 

[eab]

When ever I play paintball I end up geting smoked, mainly I think its do to the fact that my tatics are simaler in nature to John Waynes , also I relize its only paintball and am willing to take the risk of getting hit and having a minor pain, vs getting the glory of winning the game.

Better not try it in real life

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Of course Airsoft guns are inaccurate. They're 6mm smoothbore muskets firing a .12 grain projectile. However, for distances like, say, the back of the kitchen to the front door, its as accurate as need be to teach you a couple of lessons on the cheap. Lessons you might not want to attempt with a live firearm no less.

Not to nitpick. But airsoft guns fire plasic BB's in the .12 to .25 gram range, generally. Only cheap minis and five dollar springers prefer .12 gram ammo, even (that is, the stuff you buy at Wal Mart). Serious guns prefer to digest .20 or .25 ammo, and some more extreme cases of airsoft lunacy (like customized AEG's and mostly sniper rifles) prefer even heavier ammo than that!

If you were throwing .12 grain ammo out of something it'd be a wonder it went two inches! Maybe if you made it out of aerogel or something...

Hmm.

Anyway, any airsoft gun worth its salt will have a 'hopup' system that, though whatever means (usually an adjustable rubber gizmo) imparts a predictable backspin on the BB, which if adjusted and constructed correctly will keep the BB on a straight horizontal flight path. In most cases, even a cheap airsoft gun is more 'accurate' on a technical level than your old BB gun. And I'll bet you thought your BB pistol was pretty accurate as a kid when you were picking bottlecaps off with it from across the yard!

Airsoft guns can be rather surprisingly accurate, in fact. (See also: The sniper lunacy mentioned above). You just can't rifle a spherical plastic thing, so they have to do it a little differently. Even my pedestrian electric MP5 can throw about a 2" group with decent .2 gram ammo from across my yard - in full auto. That's probably 20 yards or so.

 

[Duramaximum]

How do you keep sane in a dorm room?

Tape a picture of Osama Bin Laden to a milk carton and perforate him with your airsoft pistol until you've changed his name to "Mud!" Now that's practice. Fake gun with a fake bad guy, now for the real thing!

 

[Kevlarman]

CED 8000 shot timer

Whoa! I thought that was a Gameboy Advance!

I've got a bunch of airsoft under my bed right now... one of them is a Marui all metal/wood AK-47. For what I spent in upgrades, I could've bought a real AK clone... but being this is California..

I don't skirmish much anymore, and I just keep my "tactical launcher" (pistol gripped M203) loaded nearby for the cats that like to play in my backyard.

 

[Low-Sci]

Appreciate the correction...

Got my abbreviations crossed, but all the same I made a mistake, so thank you for correcting it.

As far as paintball goes, that's my first love, and I didn't mention it because of those same 15-year-old kids. I think they actually prevent you from getting any kind of useful experience from the matter.

The other thing is that your body posture and aiming technique in paintball is so different than it is behind a real firearm that I really can't draw a parallel at all. Paintball is a game, and its great, and to be totally honest if I have a choice between a day at the range and a day on a paintball field, hell, gimme my goggles and give me 20 seconds to chrono up. But I don't think a paintball gun will build muscle memory for you the way an airsoft gun can, because the ergonomics of a paintball gun are so different.

I've played in games against police teams around here. The fact is the police teams usually get clobbered, and they do that because they're spending too much time trying to think of where to go, what to do, and taking the situation too seriously. So while the cop is sitting behind his bunker planning what may be a perfectly acceptable takedown plan, one kid sweetspots his bunker so he can't move and another angles him out, because they're playing a game, while the cops are training and are therefore party to a totally different mindset.

Of course, not to be hard on paintball, its without a doubt the greatest game out there.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Hey, Smith! I almost bought one of those guns today. I wouldn't post about buying another airsoft gun normally because of the expected reaction (who cares) but I just had to share this extra special brand of dim I encountered at the shop.

I was looking at that KWA you have, there, and also the much rebranded HFC doublestacker series (I refuse to call them 'highcapas'...) because I figured I wanted something shiny and 1911ish, and not a fullsize as I already have a couple of full framed pistols.

So I'm pretty well known at the airsoft shop and vaguely knowledgeable as I've been playing for a couple of years now. I'm checking out the KWA 945 and mention that it has a plastic slide, which is odd for stateside KWA guns as most of them make it over here with a metal variant. I point out that the slide catch is starting to wear out its notch in the slide because it's metal and the slide is ABS. The guy shrugs and says that he's never had a problem with plastic slided guns, and he seems pretty adamant that I buy the (more expensive) KWA instead of the HFC. I told him that me and plastic slides historically haven't gotten along too well, and if I get the KWA I'll have to get a metal slide for it.

He then gets indignant for some reason and feels the need to inform me that plastic slides are just peachy, because "real Glocks even have plastic slides".

At this point I lost control of all tact and laughed in his face. It took me a while to compose myself. We went back and forth for a while as I tried to convey to him that no, regardless of what you saw in Die Hard 2, Glocks have metal slides and rails just like everything else. Only the frame is plastic. He would have none of it. Never mind the fact that I've handled them extensively and have friends that own them. Nope, the facts mean nothing to this guy.

It's on him to be ignorant. But jesus, that sort of thing just scares me for some reason. I mean, this is the level of brainpower that we're dealing with in this country...

Anyway, I bought the HFC. Turns out I knew more about both of those guns than he did (including how to strip them and where the hopup adjustment was on the HFC, which he claimed had none). It's a very nice airsoft pistol and I'll probably be putting about a zillion and six rounds through it this weekend.