AK 47 Modification- Legal?

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Peakbagger46

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I recently bought a Saiga 7.62X39. As it came only with a 10 round mag, I bought two new polymer mags that are for regular AK's. I modified the mags with a file to make them fit my Saiga. The question is this, did I violate federal laws by doing so?

Thanks in advance,
-The nervous Red Neck
 
As long as your allowed to have a high capacity mag your good and have nothing to worry about. If you live in Cali, then I think your in trouble but if you live in the free America your good to go no worries.
 
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No way. I regularly check to make sure all the mags and drums work in all my ak's, and then file and polish to make fit well.
 
You "manufactured" a magazine

I believe that legally, you "manufactured" a high-capacity magazine - not modify a gun.

I THINK that is perfectly legal.

I also BELIEVE that if you search ATF's site, you'll find an opinion that says you can legally insert a hi-cap mag in ANY firearm.

I haven't checked this lately so please verify.
 
Saigafreake is right, you did violate a law.

No worries--it's a stupid law and no one here will tell on you. ;)

Just a note: to use magazines of over 10 rounds, you need ten or fewer foreign-made parts on the gun, off a specific list. This means, on a Saiga, you would need to replace 4 parts--adding US made parts for ones the gun didn't come with (a pistol grip or muzzle brake) doesn't lower the foreign parts count.

The most common are trigger parts (two will fit from the kit without modifying it the way it is) and the gas piston, and you can find a stock/grip combo that works without modifying the trigger further.

Otherwise, if you convert it to the proper 'AK look', swap out the trigger parts (3), stock, and add a US pistol grip, and you're good.

The magazine counts as 3 parts--mag, floorplate, and follower. Swap the gas piston and use US magazines, and you're good, no other mods needed.

And remember that, unless your Saiga came with the weld-lump 'feed guide', surplus AK mags will not work. The Saiga magazines use the lip of the mag in front of the bullets as a guide, whereas AK mags don't--you'll have to make sure yours has the welded guide or add a guide to it.
 
If your new mags are US-made, you're at 11 parts. Replace the foregrip and you're golden. If they're foreign mags, you're looking at a trigger group replacement.
 
I think you will find your new regular AK mags will not work reliably unless you add a "bullet guide" to the rifle.

Compare the front of the Saiga mag that came with the gun to the regular AK mag. The bullet guide is built into the Saiga mag, but is part of the gun on a regular AK.

Happy New Year!

--wally.
 
Mike the Wolf said:
If your new mags are US-made, you're at 11 parts. Replace the foregrip and you're golden. If they're foreign mags, you're looking at a trigger group replacement.
No, with a magazine in place, the factory Saiga has 14 countable parts.

When using a US made magazine, 3 of those parts count toward 922r compliance, leaving only the installation of one further US part in the rifle (gas piston is easiest) for full 922r compliance with 11+ round (or non sporting) mags.
 
I'd consider replacing the stock or handguard easier than replacing the gas piston, but the gas piston might be the least expensive method.

--wally.
 
I don't own an AK but I have a Saiga 12 on the way and these laws seem like they were invented by a bored person. I live in NY so don't even get me going, my M14 is legal but if I put a pistol grip on it then all of a sudden it is an assault rifle. Obviously I can't convert the saiga, well I could put on one of those dragonov stocks but then it may be considered a Kalashnikov and I would be in violation of the ban and if not I would have to start counting parts or not because I legally cannot own a hi cap mag well unless of course it was made before 1994, crazy stuff. The futility of it all makes my head hurt.
 
If he got the mags to fit by filing, I doubt that he had a single stack gun. Since he said Saiga, most likely it may still be in a "traditional" stock status, with no PG. Can use any damn mag he wants.
 
Anyone that stated that it is ok to slap a high capacity mag
into a Saiga with more than 10 foreign list parts once the
mag connects just encouraged a felony based on the 922r law.
Let's not encourage illegal acts. Learn the rules.
 
Thanks for all the feedback. I think I will be getting a USA made teloscoping stock like the one I have on my work rifle (in addition to being a redneck, I also work for an LE agency in the Rocky Mountains).

The modified mags have worked perfect, but I do have to pull the bolt back when they are placed into the gun.
 
It doesn't take much to file the mag catch and install a bullet guide in the Saiga rifles - that way you can use regular AK mags without modifying them...

Do mind your 922r though - the stock is easy to replace, as is the gas piston. Or you could just do the full conversion and end up with a fine rifle that far exceeds 922r requirements.
 
Having just reread 922(r), (for about the 50th time), as well as 925(d)(3), here's my opinion.

So long as you don't insert the mag into the rifle, you are not guilty of anything under just about any sane interpretation of the law.

If you do insert and use the magazine, you still probably aren't guilty of anything.

Section 922r that everyone refers to simply states that it is illegal to manufacture or assemble a rifle that is banned from importation by 925(d)(3) unless you use 10 or less foreign parts on the rifle.

The next question then is whether the Saiga is banned from import by 925(d)(3), and the answer is clearly no. It has not been banned from import by the ATF, and there is no mention whatsoever of high capacity magazines in either 922(r) or 925(d)(3).

High capacity magazines were part of 922(v), (the Assault Weapons Ban). Thankfully, the AWB is no more and 922(v) is no longer the law. Before September 2004, inserting a high capacity mag would have been a clear cut violation of the law. Now that's no longer the case since the section of the law that specifically prohibited high cap mags is no more.

Now the ATF does consider the ability of a rifle to accept high capacity magazines as a determining factor of whether it has sporting purposes. The law however doesn't mention magazine capacity.

Bottom line is there is a reason why almost no one has been prosecuted under 922r despite widespread and flagrant violations. It's a vague, poorly worded mess.

Also bear in mind that ATF letters have no force of law. They are only the opinions of the agents that wrote them. Just because an ATF letter says something is legal, doesn't mean it really is and vice versa. You also need to check the dates on the letters. The laws have changed significantly since 2004 and many things that were illegal then are not now.
 
The Saiga is legal to import because it doesn't accept standard AK mags. That's the reason why the Saiga doesn't have a bullet guide and the WASR is imported as a single stack. Just think about it. Why would Saiga or WASR manufacture their guns in this undesirable form if they weren't required to in order to get it imported. Modifying the gun so that it accepts standard AK mags would make it non-sporting without the other 922r changes.
 
Modifying the gun so that it accepts standard AK mags would make it non-sporting without the other 922r changes.

Then show where it states that anywhere in 922r or 925d. The law makes no reference to high capacity magazines. That's simply a leftover of the AWB, which is now dead.

ATF does have a list of weapons that are banned from import, but the Saiga is not on that list.

So if you were to modify the rifle, (the OP actually mentioned modifying the mags which is clearly legal, ie. Surefire, FBMG), you would arguably still not have a rifle that was banned from import under 925(d)(3).

The ATF does also consider the ability to accept high capacity mags when determining which rifles have sporting purposes, but this is obviously just a guideline since there are high cap mags available for almost all Saigas that require no modifications.
 
The law is very vague, and exactly because of that, it's best to err on the safe side, which is easy and inexpensive to do.
 
That I can and do agree with. It just irks me a bit when I see people saying, "you've committed a felony", when all they've done is modify a magazine.

You're right though, that it's best to err on the side of caution and that it's not difficult or expensive to add enough US parts to make the rifle compliant under anyone's understanding of the law.
 
I went through this when I had a Saiga 308. Spend some time on the Saiga forum.

The general consensus on 922(r) is that in order to use high capacity magazines in a Saiga, you need to do a conversion.

The conversion is needed because you will end up replacing enough parts with US components for the rifle to be considered in compliance.

Everyone there will tell you that this is the "consensus" but that a ruling would be needed.

But no one wants to be the test case.


When it comes down to it, I'd rather convert and not worry. I'm not willing to bet my future on the risk, and I prefer the AK in its traditional profile over the Saiga sporter profile.


-- John
 
Go to Dinzagarms.com or Saiga-12.com and read their sections on 922r compliance. Probably as straight forward explanation as they come. These sites deal with Saiga's and everything that goes with them. Greg
 
elmerfudd - In 1998 the Treasury Dept/ATF added the ability to accept a detachable large capacity magazine originally designed and produced for a military assault weapon to the list of disqualifying military configuration features identified in the 1989 changes to the sporting purposes standard. See the linked report.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/assault/pdf/complete.pdf

Also, the expiration of the 1994 AWB had not affect on the provisions of section 922(r) of the GCA and the regulations in 27 CFR 478.39 regarding assembly of non-sporting shotguns and semiautomatic rifles from imported parts.
 
In 1998 the Treasury Dept/ATF added the ability to accept a detachable large capacity magazine originally designed and produced for a military assault weapon to the list of disqualifying military configuration features identified in the 1989 changes to the sporting purposes standard. See the linked report.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/assault/pdf/complete.pdf

Also, the expiration of the 1994 AWB had not affect on the provisions of section 922(r) of the GCA and the regulations in 27 CFR 478.39 regarding assembly of non-sporting shotguns and semiautomatic rifles from imported parts.

This is the truth unfortunately.
 
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