AK vs AR apples to apples accuracy

[BRMraider]

I am not trying to start a never ending internet war here, merely trying to ascertain the inherent qualities of each platform. If you had an AK and an AR with the same:

Barrel (length, quality, manufacturer, profile)
Chamber (for example, if both rifles were chambered in 5.56 NATO)
Trigger
Sighting systems (same sights and sight radius)

... which would be more accurate and would the difference even be noticeable?

I understand that the AK has a much heavier moving parts assembly and that the barrel is attached to the receiver differently than the AR. I also understand that the AR has multiple locking lugs rather than (I believe) the one lug of the AK. These factors would inherently effect accuracy regardless of rifle configuration and it is these differences that I am trying to explore.

Any insight as to the inherent accuracy of each platform would be appreciated.

 

[crazysccrmd]

An AR will generally be more accurate. An AK will generally be more reliable. Both of those variables depend on build quality and operator competency. They are both fine for the purpose of engaging man size targets within the range they're designed to be used.

 

[boom boom]

What are you going to use it for?
Target shooting? Defensive combat use? Hunting? Varmint Shooting?

Pick your primary purpose and you will get better responses/advise rather than generic AR versus AK. Think a general search in google with a more specific search term.

You could use bone-stock M4 AR clones or an AK for multiple purposes, just don't be surprised that it is less than stellar across the board in all types of uses.

If possible, try an AR and an AK out by rental at a firing range or asking a friend to go shooting with theirs--if you pay for the ammo. Find out for yourself what you like and try using it for whatever primary purpose that you plan on using the rifle for. You might come away with an appreciation of the strengths and weaknesses of both platforms.

NAW--just fooling, that is too reasonable, instead get the most expensive, tacticool, lastest fad caliber, Spec Ops looking guy in the magazine ad endorsed, tricked out rifle that cost the same as a very good four wheeler with an eight year payment plan. I'm sure that you can get that advice easy.

 

[grter]

AR vs AK74 which are similar bullets (5.56 vs 5.45x39) but also different in significant ways or AR vs AK47 which are two very different bullets (5.56 vs 7.63x39) and in my opinion have very different uses as well as different strong and weak points.

Which you would want to use would depend on they type environment you plan to use them in and what type of use you intend.

 

[readyeddy]

Both typically give about 2 moa with good quality guns and ammo.

 

[BRMraider]

I am not interested in purchasing a rifle at this moment (already have enough for now). I am just curious about if you built each rifle to near identical specification and locked them into a vice, which would be more accurate. I have fired both several times and honestly I prefer the AK but I am curious as the general reputation is that the AK is more reliable and the AR is more accurate but most AKs are pretty cheaply built and most ARs are fairly expensive (at least compared to the majority of AKs). If the rifles are chambered for the same cartridge, have the same barrel, trigger, stock, sights, or anything else that effects accuracy; which would be more accurate and would the difference be noticeable? Basically what is the inherent accuracy difference between platforms?

 

[justin22885]

i have an AK-74 i built from a parts kit and while doing so also converted it to 5.56, this means with a new manufactured barrel and 5.56 ammo i can do a close comparison with AR-15s

results?.. using the same ammunition my AK achieves the same accuracy as any milspec AR15 of the same barrel length

now.. usually when i say this you'll get someone to chime in and say "youre full of crap, i have a 20" heavy match barreled accurized AR-15 that can shoot better groups than your barely modified AK-74" as if i couldnt go have a custom match grade RPK contour barrel made up and installed for the same reason.. point is, equally equipped rifles ive discovered it to be a wash

the origin of the myth that AKs are minute of barn accurate probably comes from comparisons done with 50 year old half shot out surplus 7.62 AKs using 40 year old surplus ammunition... quality 150 grain 7.62 ammo is fairly accurate.. and put the cheap surplus ammo into say a 7.62 AR-15 and you'll find accuracies to be poorer than 5.56 as well.. providing another piece of evidence that it has more to do with the ammo than the weapons

AK and ARs have about the same sight radius.. i can shoot open sights fairly accuracy but.. i generally run it with a red dot mounted to the side rail.. allows me to get the red dot for a lower 1/3 co-witness while still being able to field strip without having to remove it

 

[BRMraider]

This is exactly what I have suspected. Most of the "AKs are inaccurate" statements are generally followed by an explanation of a match grade AR vs a $300 surplus AK using garbage ammo.

 

[briansmithwins]

Using the same (SS109 spec) ammo I can get a little less than 1.5MOA groups with my AR (16" midlength, standard hand guard, chromed barrel, and Aimpoint) or 2.5-3MOA groups through my SLR-106FR with an Aimpoint on its side rail.

I've never seen an AK that approached the accuracy of an AR, no matter the caliber. I think the AK is superior to the AR in many aspects, but accuracy isn't one of them.

And to clarify a point: The recoiling parts of a standard AR are very close in weight to those of an AK.

BSW

 

[Malamute]

I see a couple problems with the way the comparison is proposed. Trying to make them comparable in all aspects is ignoring the fact that they arent normally made that way. I dont understand the point of making artificial parameters if the guns arent normally built or used that way.

AK's are most often made with a stamped sheet metal receiver, fairly light weight barrel for the caliber, made even lighter in comparison when in 7.62x39 cal. They have mushy, creepy triggers, and the ammo most often used and shot is so-so for the most part. If one adds good ammo, decent trigger, even an optic or better irons, they still typically wont shoot to the level that an AR with decent ammo and trigger will, especially with an optic. Try for better than off the shelf accuracy, and the AR will quickly pull ahead.

I've looked at discussions of the RPK (not sure if correct name, the longer heavy barrelled AK actioned magazine fed squad auto), they tried to get them shooting better, heavy barrel and all, but they dont seem to shoot much better overall than regular AK's.

I've had a number of Colt AR's. even the skinny barrel earlier ones would shoot the first 3 rds into an inch @ 100 yards with decent ammo (decent at the time was off the shelf M193 PMC ammo that shot very well in all the guns I shot it in at the time). My experience with Ak's is its the average gun that shoots so-so, like 4-8" groups with average ammo, and the exceptional one that shoots better with decent ammo. That was 5.45's and 7.62x39's. With AR's, all I've had would shoot very well with even ball ammo that was consistent. Scoped, 7/10 on prairie dogs @ 300 yards off the hood of the truck wasnt at all surprising. Molon has 10 shot targets of off the shelf Colt AR barrels with good ammo of easily under 1" @ 100 yards. Also not surprising. Most arent quite that good, but not all that far off.

Is anyone building precision guns on AK actions? The one instance I know of of someone trying to build a decently accurate (AR level of accuracy) on a stamped receiver "Dragunov" type rifle in 7.62x54R ended up giving up, it wasnt producing that great of results for the time and effort involved. The type may produce some exceptional shooters, but they are generally considered about 2" guns I believe. If your talking truly accurate guns, thats really poor.

 

[HankC]

Both typically give about 2 moa with good quality guns and ammo.

Would be very happy to get 2 MOA out of an AK!
Many AKs have loose chambers, I had an AK that swallows spent casings from my 7.62x39 bolt gun and group 3-4" at 50 yds which is 6-8 MOA. I have SKS that would do close to 2 -3 MOA, 1.5" group at 50 yds, but not AK!

 

[mshootnit]

I know my AK is holding sub 6" groups at 200 yd. Wolf ammo, 4xscope. Long single stage trigger.
I also know my AR 20" Delton non chrome 1:9 govt profile rifle is beating that by at least 1" at 200 yd. 9x scope, target trigger, quality ammo.

 

[Hammer059]

With iron sights and cheap factory ammo I'll put my DDI or Polish classic up against pretty much any AR with irons and comparable ammo.

My groups might not be much better, but I highly doubt they'd be much worse.

 

[Hammer059]

"I know my AK is holding sub 6" groups at 200 yd. Wolf ammo, 4xscope. Long single stage trigger.
I also know my AR 20" Delton non chrome 1:9 govt profile rifle is beating that by at least 1" at 200 yd. 9x scope, target trigger, quality ammo."

Soooo… You're comparing an AK with a 4x scope and cheap ammo to an AR with a 9x scope, 20" barrel, upgraded trigger, and quality ammo…

Sounds like a perfectly fair comparison :banghead:

 

[readyeddy]

Nutnfancy shoots 1 moa with tech sites.

 

[taliv]

i think the OP is trying to understand if there's something about the design or materials that makes one more accurate than another, aside from the items listed, which we already know heavily favor the AR, because

you can easily get high quality (e.g. krieger) barrels for AR but not AK, chambered by people who know what they're doing
you can easily get dozens of different high quality triggers for AR but none for AK
and it's easy to scope an AR but not an AK, and if using irons, the AR irons are far superior.


so that leaves the crappy stamped steel vs machined aluminum
the DI vs piston gas system
the rotating bolt with multiple lugs,
FP and FP hole size,
free floating FP vs firing pin spring
free floating barrel vs the barrel, handguards, gas system etc all in one big kludge
etc etc etc

just my opinion, but there is absolutely nothing about the AK that enhances accuracy compared to an AR

 

[bikemutt]

I've owned several AKs, they were all very good rifles, all accurate for their intended purpose. 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards regardless of ammo.

The AR15s I still own cut the group size in half.

Some of that could be off the shelf 5.56/.223 being somewhat better quality than the same in 7.62x39. I don't know.

My very best 7.62x39 rifles put up 1.5" groups at 100 yards, I'm very happy with that. My best AR15 rifle cuts that group size in half, or better.

I guess if I had to pick one platform over the other as far as accuracy goes, I'd say AR15 is more accurate.

 

[Tirod]

In the past decade the subject has come up more than once. The biggest difference - all other things being equal for fairness - is that the gas cylinder is mounted on the barrel and when pressure hits it to move the action, the barrel bends.

Despite moving the muzzle off target the gyrations of the barrel are reduced enough there is no significant dispersion of the muzzle to increase the MOA. Hard to believe, but that's what the youtube vids in slow motion seem to point out

Muzzle dispersion is one physical cause of inaccuracy, and if the only difference is the location of the gas cylinder on the barrel, then it effectively doesn't mean anything. AK's can be just as accurate.

What does mean something is the ability of the operator to manipulate the controls - which is where the two aren't ever going to be on equal grounds.

Don't forget the M16 is only supposed to be 2MOA - so the argument about which is more accurate is moot. Both are effectively accurate enough for combat. It's the locker room measuring contestants who keep bringing up which has a theoretical advantage. What nobody wants to discuss is how the controls of the M16 are ergonomically superior compared to the AK. That is a fact represented in the M16 being copied in most of the subsequent firearms designs since 1970.

Most of the HSLD improvements for AK's on the American market are simply changes to make it more ergonomic, an admission it isn't. And the results of the OPEN competition in 3Gun is another - AK's can't hold against AR's. They don't cooperate with the shooter and impede his ability to hit targets.

I don't think the question of superior accuracy is all that controversial. It shouldn't stir up much of any discussion simply because it lacks importance in the designed intent of use. It's the ease of use that is important. The AK isn't easier to use. The location of the charging handle, design of the safety, and method of loading the weapon against a closed bolt are the serious design flaws that make or break it on the battle field.

 

[briansmithwins]

The location of the charging handle, design of the safety, and method of loading the weapon against a closed bolt are the serious design flaws that make or break it on the battle field.

Or one could say ' The location of the charging handle, design of the safety, and method of loading the weapon against a closed bolt are the serious design flaws that make or break it on the game field.'

The AK is much easier to teach people that have no experience with firearms. All of the controls are located easily near the right hand and are directly linked to the thing they do. Want to open the bolt? Pull back on the bolt handle. Push the bolt closed if needed? Push forward on the bolt handle. The mag release has an obvious function and is directly connected to the magazine. The safety obviously blocks the bolt from moving.

With an AR it's: to make the bolt go back pull this thing on the rear here, then remember to push it forward. To release the bolt you push on this little lever that's on the side and has no obvious or intuitive function. Then there's the ejection port door, which is usually good for some confusion as well.

And don't get me started on field stripping either rifle and the possibility of assembling a AR minus a cam or firing pin retaining pin.

The AR has some advantages, but isn't without flaws as well. Just because we have 55 years of experience in dealing with the AR series shortcomings doesn't men they don't exist.

BSW

 

[yugorpk]

My 3rd AK was a Mitchell import Yugoslavian .308 M77 AK. Big AK to be sure but it was a Kalashnikov variant nonetheless. With good handloads it would easily hold under an inch at 100 yards with the factory scope. Sold it during the ban and I kick myself all the time. Made a lot of money on it though so I don't kick myself that hard.

I built a top notch ...Yugo RPK.. with all virgin parts from a virgin parts kit bac kwhen you could buy those for $300 ( Ah , the good old days ) Lots of shiny varnish and that wonderful fat M77 style grip. great aftermarket target trigger etc. Prettiest gun Ive ever owned. With a Belorussian 4X scope I couldnt hold better than 2" groups with the best commie ammo I could find.

 

[justin22885]

i think the OP is trying to understand if there's something about the design or materials that makes one more accurate than another, aside from the items listed, which we already know heavily favor the AR, because

you can easily get high quality (e.g. krieger) barrels for AR but not AK, chambered by people who know what they're doing
you can easily get dozens of different high quality triggers for AR but none for AK
and it's easy to scope an AR but not an AK, and if using irons, the AR irons are far superior.


so that leaves the crappy stamped steel vs machined aluminum
the DI vs piston gas system
the rotating bolt with multiple lugs,
FP and FP hole size,
free floating FP vs firing pin spring
free floating barrel vs the barrel, handguards, gas system etc all in one big kludge
etc etc etc

just my opinion, but there is absolutely nothing about the AK that enhances accuracy compared to an AR

actually.. you can get the same quality barrels made by most the same barrel manufacturers just having to pay a tax extra for a custom contour is all.. and its all lathe work, no machining locking lugs, no headspacing, no barrel extension etc on an AK barrel... chuck a quality chambered barrel blank onto a lathe and turn one out... use an RPK RSB and gas block and you can put a heavy match barrel on an AK as well

you can also omit the handguard retainer free float the handguard as well... just about everything you said about the AK is misguided misconceptions... the only thing preventing you from seeing a plethora of free floated accurized match AKs with heavy bull barrels is quite literally, and for no other reason than aftermarket and your average joe "gunsmith" having neither the brains nor the tools to properly do said upgrades

also, with no limitation to magazine size or shape, ive seen 7.62x39 AKM parts kits built as functioning .308/7.62x51 battle rifles, the bolt and locking lugs in the trunnion are both big enough, and strong enough to use a larger bolt or machine out an existing one for the 12mm case and shortening the trigger guard to make way for longer magazines... anyone who says the AR is more versatile because they can get bolt ons for it, show me a 5.56 AR-15 converted to a .308 without needing a new bolt

 

[kozak6]

The Russians have silly ideas about simple and inexpensive rifles, battlefield accuracy, volume of fire, and designated marksmen rather than "every man a rifleman".

Besides, if we were comparing a modern AK-74M type rifle with good ammo and an optic to a shot out M16A1 Century kit build with a 1-14" barrel and Tulammo, accuracy would likely go the other way.

 

[justin22885]

id love to rebarrel an AKM to 6.5 grendel with a 20" match grade heavy contour barrel and a free float forearm with a long range scope and just see how far you can reach out and touch something with an AK DMR

but.. such a project isnt even on my list

 

[DP03]

Tally, not all AK's are "crappy stamped steel". Mine happens to be a milled receiver that would compare favorably to a quality AR.

 

[mavracer]

the only thing preventing you from seeing a plethora of free floated accurized match AKs with heavy bull barrels is quite literally, and for no other reason than aftermarket and your average joe "gunsmith" having neither the brains nor the tools to properly do said upgrades

Even without a plethora you'd think you'd see one that was competative in NRA Hi Power.

With iron sights and cheap factory ammo I'll put my DDI or Polish classic up against pretty much any AR with irons and comparable ammo.

If Prvi counts as cheap you're on