Am I crazy...or just observant...but slow

[JumboJVT]

57 yo and just bought my first AR - your president made me do it. I'd planned to use a Leupold FXII 2.5 I bought for a lever gun on it. But, like the lever, when I got it mounted up, the eye relief and light we're less than I wanted. So, being the simple (minded) man I am, I decided that an LVPO was the perfect all-around answer to questions I hadn't really though out, so I bought one: a Vortex Viper PST II 1-6. The glass is very good, the daylight dot is awesome, the reticle is simple, built like a tank; its really damned good at what it does. BUT, its big, its heavy and at 4-6X with a 24mm objective, its dark in low light. Actually, at anything more than 2-3x, it gathers less light than a 40 yo Leupold Vari-X II 3x9 I bought new in '82-'83. I guess even better glass and the new coatings can't outrun the physics of exit pupil. Don't understand why the manufacturers insist on a small objective on the LPVO's...fashion I suspect.

So now I'm considering going back to the idea of a fixed power magnified optic (did I mention simple?), but I've decided I really like the illumination. I'm considering either a Steiner T332 (3x) prism or a PA Glx 2X prism. Objectively, the PA is probably better: a significantly longer eye relief (3.5" vs 2.75"), a little lighter (11 oz. vs 16 oz.) and a little less moolah ($370 vs $400), but I'm having a hard time with the Chinese manufacture of the PA. On the other hand, I can find very little info on the Steiner and it appears they are being discontinued.

So, what are other options for non-China made prisms (not paying for an ACOG)? Anywhere but China. 2-3X, daylight-bright reticle, adjustable diopter, non-critical eye relief, decent glass. Or have I already got as good as I'll get without a significant upcharge? Thanks for the input.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Congrats on the AR. I just got mine at 58. I do have a big scope on it though. Vortex diamond back tactile. 6x24x50 FFP. But im a magnification junkie.

 

[entropy]

Why would you put the Magnification up over 4 in low light anyway? There are scopes made for that, but they usually cost more.
Everything in optics is a trade off. You want higher magnification and a small objective lens? You pay for it in less exit pupil. A 1-4 will give you a larger exit pupil. My Strike Eagle 1-8 would be almost useless above 4 around dusk, but that isn't what I bought it for. I might go up to 4 on a full moon night for coyotes, but the high end is for day longer range use, the low end is for social work if needed, or coyotes.

Easy touch on that tactile scope?

 

[TonyAngel]

With what is required to build a variable optic with a 1x, the small objective is a necessity. If you aren't willing to spend the money on an ACOG, the PA is likely your best option.

 

[InTheSwamp]

Congrats on the AR.
What's the intended use? Hunting, HD, Sports? What distances are you aiming to shoot?
For many scenarios, an NV-Capable Red Dot + IR Illuminator is the answer. Also, non-Chicom=More $$.

 

[Varminterror]

A 3-9x40mm has an exit pupil of only 4.44mm at 9x, whereas a 1-6x24mm has an exit pupil of 6mm at 4x and 4mm at 6x… you should certainly not see exit pupil darkening in either of these scopes, even at maximum magnification, and definitely shouldn’t see a significant difference between a 3-9x at 9x and 1-6x at 4-6x. Certainly, the 3-9x40mm could look brighter at 3x or 4x than the 1-6x at 3-4x, since the exit pupil would be 67% larger in the 3-9x40 than the 1-6x24, but typically when we’re talking EP’s that big, guys aren’t noticing much difference in brightness from one to another. Usually it’s only when we get down below 2-3mm exit pupil where it becomes an issue. So something seems off to me.

 

[ECVMatt]

Well I get the China thing but I have a couple of PA prisms and they are good. I have the 2X GLX and the 3 X SLX micro. I really like them both for general shooting. They seem to be fast up close and are able to provide hits at reasonable distances. They might be worth a look.

 

[JumboJVT]

Why would you put the Magnification up over 4 in low light anyway? There are scopes made for that, but they usually cost more.
Everything in optics is a trade off. You want higher magnification and a small objective lens? You pay for it in less exit pupil. A 1-4 will give you a larger exit pupil. My Strike Eagle 1-8 would be almost useless above 4 around dusk, but that isn't what I bought it for. I might go up to 4 on a full moon night for coyotes, but the high end is for day longer range use, the low end is for social work if needed, or coyotes.

Easy touch on that tactile scope?

I don't want high magnification and small objective, I don't want a small objective at all. But that seems what I'm forced to have to get 1X. And obviously, I don't run it over 4X at dusk because I can't. Point is, 6X would be useable with a 32-36mm objective

With what is required to build a variable optic with a 1x, the small objective is a necessity. If you aren't willing to spend the money on an ACOG, the PA is likely your best option.

Can you share why this is so? It isn't intuitive to me why it would be. I note that on the ACOG's, as I read it pretty much acknowledged as the clearest brightest image, the smallest exit pupil offered is 8mm (3x24)

Congrats on the AR.
What's the intended use? Hunting, HD, Sports? What distances are you aiming to shoot?
For many scenarios, an NV-Capable Red Dot + IR Illuminator is the answer. Also, non-Chicom=More $$.

I haven't yet figured out what this gun is for. Absent something going horribly wrong, I really don't have a use, hence the do-it-all idea on the LPVO, to figure out what I might do with it. Red dots are out with my astigmatism. Plenty good enough on a handgun for the ghoul at the end of the hall, but not at range with a rifle.

A 3-9x40mm has an exit pupil of only 4.44mm at 9x, whereas a 1-6x24mm has an exit pupil of 6mm at 4x and 4mm at 6x… you should certainly not see exit pupil darkening in either of these scopes, even at maximum magnification, and definitely shouldn’t see a significant difference between a 3-9x at 9x and 1-6x at 4-6x. Certainly, the 3-9x40mm could look brighter at 3x or 4x than the 1-6x at 3-4x, since the exit pupil would be 67% larger in the 3-9x40 than the 1-6x24, but typically when we’re talking EP’s that big, guys aren’t noticing much difference in brightness from one to another. Usually it’s only when we get down below 2-3mm exit pupil where it becomes an issue. So something seems off to me.

I don't disagree with a thing you've said...in good light. But I'm far more likely to actually be doing something useful with a rifle at first and last light, under heavy canopy on a dark overcast day, or staring into a black hole from a bright location, than to have both me and the target in the open on a bright blue-bird day. In those conditions, for me anyway, when the EP drops below about 6mm it gets harder to resolve detail. Turn the mag down, you say. But the point of the magnification is to ID the target, to "look through" the brush, to pick the shot. But since I'm finding I have less use for an AR than I thought, maybe those concerns are moot hence the idea of a prism.

Well I get the China thing but I have a couple of PA prisms and they are good. I have the 2X GLX and the 3 X SLX micro. I really like them both for general shooting. They seem to be fast up close and are able to provide hits at reasonable distances. They might be worth a look.

Thanks. I think I will. Might not sell the Viper just yet, but will probably pickup a prism of some sort.

 

[InTheSwamp]

If you don't mind SFP, this SWFA will do you favors. Made in Japan.

SWFA 1-4x24 SS 30mm Riflescope - SWFA Outdoors

 

[jmr40]

IMO a 1-4X or 1-6X variable is near perfect on an AR. If you go with a 30mm tube with a 24mm objective, you will have more light than a human eye can process as long as you don't go above 4X. 5X or 6X may be a little limited but should still be usable for hunting during any legal shooting time. If you want to shoot in the dark a good, mounted light will illuminate out past 100 yards.

With the scope set at 1X I can get on close targets faster than with any other sight including dots and irons. And 4X is enough magnification to get hits on game animals or human threats out to at least 300 yards.

Your Vortex scope set on 5X or 6x lets almost exactly the same amount of light through it as your Leupold does when set on 8X or 9X. You have a scope glass problem, not an exit pupil problem. I had a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6X and was disappointed in the quality of the glass. Moving to a better quality 1-4X scope solved the problem.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Sorry, I'm of no help on the LPVO front, as they aren't something I've played with aside from a Leupold VX-Freedom 1.5-4x20mm I had mounted on a Remington 700 in .30-06 and a Ruger 10/22 for a while. It was a nice scope to my eyes, but I never used it in real challenging light conditions.

What I really stopped in to say is, I'm trying to figure out how you're finding "limited eye relief" with that FX-II 2.5x20mm scope. I have one that's currently mounted on a Ruger 77 in .308 Winchester, and to be quite honest, the biggest issue I had mounting it up is getting it FAR enough from my eye to have the full field of view. The thing has enormous eye relief; it's easily in the 5"+ range in practical use. When I've thought about mounting it up to my AR, I realized I'd need a mount that puts the ocular lens somewhere over the front half of the receiver. Perhaps you could make the scope you have work with the rifle you have with a different type of mount?

(I also generally shoot an AR nose-to-charging handle, which is great for consistent head positioning. My only caveat here is to be sure to put a little Permatex on the gap between the charging handle and receiver. Google for the Why and How-To on this trick.)

 

[JumboJVT]

Sorry, I'm of no help on the LPVO front, as they aren't something I've played with aside from a Leupold VX-Freedom 1.5-4x20mm I had mounted on a Remington 700 in .30-06 and a Ruger 10/22 for a while. It was a nice scope to my eyes, but I never used it in real challenging light conditions.

What I really stopped in to say is, I'm trying to figure out how you're finding "limited eye relief" with that FX-II 2.5x20mm scope. I have one that's currently mounted on a Ruger 77 in .308 Winchester, and to be quite honest, the biggest issue I had mounting it up is getting it FAR enough from my eye to have the full field of view. The thing has enormous eye relief; it's easily in the 5"+ range in practical use. When I've thought about mounting it up to my AR, I realized I'd need a mount that puts the ocular lens somewhere over the front half of the receiver. Perhaps you could make the scope you have work with the rifle you have with a different type of mount?

(I also generally shoot an AR nose-to-charging handle, which is great for consistent head positioning. My only caveat here is to be sure to put a little Permatex on the gap between the charging handle and receiver. Google for the Why and How-To on this trick.)

I should have been clearer. The length of the FX-II eye relief is not a problem, but it is much more "critical" than on any other Leupold scope I've ever had (12+). That is, the so-called eyebox is less forgiving of head position, which I've presumed is a function of the small objective AND small ocular. And it also presents a lot of the rim of the ocular housing (thick black ring around the edges), which all but disappears on my three older Vari-XII's. The VX2's aren't as good as the older scopes in that respect, but still much better than the 2.5. I actually sent the 2.5 back to the mother ship when I first got it thinking something was wrong. Came back with a clean bill of health.

Nose on the chargin' handle is not for me. I like my rifle in front of me and don't like the cramped wrist I get when that far forward. I assume the Permatex to to cut down on the gas comin back?

 

[TonyAngel]

There are many articles on the subject of LPVOs and the objective size needed to achieve a 1x. Google it.

For low cost/low weight options I'd be looking at a gen I vortex pst 1-4x or burris rt6. My favorite 1-4x is the Steiner p4xi with p3tr reticle. They can be had for around 500 on the used market.

For times when I don't mind the bulk and weight, I run a gen II razor. When I want light, I run an acog.

I'd also take comments regarding speed with a grain of salt. I've found that much of that is very dependent on practice and the situation.

 

[gotboostvr]

I'm a big fan of the micro-prisms from PA.

A decade ago I bought their optics because it was all I could afford and they were surprisingly nice for the cost. It was either those, or NC Star for me.

Then they started coming out with some well equipped magnified scopes at a price I could afford. I think $200 for a 4-14x50 FFP MilDot was unheard of at the time. That also gave me great service, if a touch dark.

Now I can afford nicer options (and frequently choose to) but, will buy PA's if it's well suited to the task.

Those micro-prisms are super nifty. They're very light and small and come with a well thought out mounting system (and can use mini ACOG mounts). With their generous eye box, you can get a little creative with where you put them.

Combined with their pretty good, not amazing glass, super bright illumination and nice reticle, they're very nice little packages.

 

[Kawamax]

57 yo and just bought my first AR - your president made me do it. .

Congrats on the new AR. Diane Feinstein convinced me to buy three of them myself. Thinking more, maybe I should buy another one for Uncle Joe…