An odd one: Remington repro, modern sights, but in .36 caliber!

[Gatofeo]

Picked this up a while back
Reproduction of '58 Remington, modern click-adjustable target sights, but in .36 caliber.
I've seen plenty of factory-made Remington copies with target sights, and they're still sold today, but always in .44 caliber. Never seen a .36!
Top of barrel marking: NAVY ARMS CO. RIDGEFIELD, N.J. MADE IN ITALY all in one line.
Left side of octagonal barrel: MOD. 1858 NEW BELT CAL. 36
Serial number on bottom of grip frame: 356XX
Barrel length: 6 1/2 inches.

Three markings on right frame, above trigger guard:
PN under a 5-point star inside a wheel. This is the Italian proof mark, certifying each chamber was proofed at 8,800 psi with 30% overload. PN is short for "polera nera" or black powder.

Shield with crossed rifles, above this is a 5-point star in a wheel. This is the mark for the Gardone Val Trompia proof house.

Uppercase XX9 indicates it was made in 1973.

No markings to indicate WHO made this revolver for Navy Arms. I would guess Uberti.

Revolver is almost like-new, except for very slight damage on the wood grips. No damage to steel.

Disappointment at the target range, however:
Carefully loaded with swaged lead balls of .380 inch, and Lee conical bullets I cast myself, held with two hands and fired at 25 yards from a benchrest, with varying charges of GOEX and KIK FFFG black powder. Felt wad lubricated with Gatofeo No. 1 Bullet Lubricant (a mix of canning paraffin, beeswax and mutton tallow) under each ball. Lee conical bullet lubricated with same lubricant in grooves, but no felt wad beneath it.
Most targets showed 6 projectiles in a 5 or 6-inch circle.. A few targets had 4" groups.
I was puzzled by its inaccuracy until one day I had this pistol and my Colt reissue 1851 Navy made in 1982 at the range. Cleaning them later, I realized that the rifling on this "Target .36" is much shallower than the Colt's. In fact, its grooves are shallower than my other cap and ball revolvers.
Even with the rear sight cranked down all the way, it shoots 6 inches high at 25 yards.
So, it's not really a "Target .36" like I hoped, but it is an intesting revolver from 1973.
I wonder how many .36s were made with modern, adjustable sights?

 

[BullRunBear]

Glad you brought up this situation. I have a Remington 1858 target model in 44 and have the same problem of lousy groups and shooting way high no matter where I set the rear sight. I do better with the standard fixed sight version. Never thought to check the rifling depth but I'll give it a look. My Ruger Old Army with adjustable sights does great.

BTW, the felt wad lube (1880s?) you brought to people's attention years ago is the bees knees. I use it for wads in my cap and ball revolvers and when making black powder cartridges for 38 special and 44 Colt. I've lost track of many folk I've mentioned it to.

Jeff

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Picked this up a while back
Reproduction of '58 Remington, modern click-adjustable target sights, but in .36 caliber.
I've seen plenty of factory-made Remington copies with target sights, and they're still sold today, but always in .44 caliber. Never seen a .36!
Top of barrel marking: NAVY ARMS CO. RIDGEFIELD, N.J. MADE IN ITALY all in one line.
Left side of octagonal barrel: MOD. 1858 NEW BELT CAL. 36
Serial number on bottom of grip frame: 356XX
Barrel length: 6 1/2 inches.

Three markings on right frame, above trigger guard:
PN under a 5-point star inside a wheel. This is the Italian proof mark, certifying each chamber was proofed at 8,800 psi with 30% overload. PN is short for "polera nera" or black powder.

Shield with crossed rifles, above this is a 5-point star in a wheel. This is the mark for the Gardone Val Trompia proof house.

Uppercase XX9 indicates it was made in 1973.

No markings to indicate WHO made this revolver for Navy Arms. I would guess Uberti.

Revolver is almost like-new, except for very slight damage on the wood grips. No damage to steel.

Disappointment at the target range, however:
Carefully loaded with swaged lead balls of .380 inch, and Lee conical bullets I cast myself, held with two hands and fired at 25 yards from a benchrest, with varying charges of GOEX and KIK FFFG black powder. Felt wad lubricated with Gatofeo No. 1 Bullet Lubricant (a mix of canning paraffin, beeswax and mutton tallow) under each ball. Lee conical bullet lubricated with same lubricant in grooves, but no felt wad beneath it.
Most targets showed 6 projectiles in a 5 or 6-inch circle.. A few targets had 4" groups.
I was puzzled by its inaccuracy until one day I had this pistol and my Colt reissue 1851 Navy made in 1982 at the range. Cleaning them later, I realized that the rifling on this "Target .36" is much shallower than the Colt's. In fact, its grooves are shallower than my other cap and ball revolvers.
Even with the rear sight cranked down all the way, it shoots 6 inches high at 25 yards.
So, it's not really a "Target .36" like I hoped, but it is an intesting revolver from 1973.
I wonder how many .36s were made with modern, adjustable sights?

The PN actually stands for "polvere nera" , italian for black powder. ;-) . btw....love the Gatoefeo #1 lube you reintroduced to our hobby.

 

[skeeterfogger]

Might check cylinder bores for being undersize of barrel bore max.
Check fors smooth transition at the forcing cone.
Check muzzle for unevenness and or damage.
I had a Walker that shot 8 high and 6 right at 25 yards. Cylinder bore was under and crown was uneven. Opened cylinder bore to.451, dressed the crown and polished forcing cone and it hits proper.
My pair of 1858 rem targets hit inside diameter of a door knob at 25 yards all day.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Are the bullets/balls shaving lead when loaded? This can cause inaccuracy as well. I know lots of guys here want to see a ring of lead cut from the ball but it's better if the ball is compressed into the chamber rather than having material removed from it. I do agree that matching chamber size to bore diameter is a great idea. Just my nickels worth.

 

[arcticap]

So, it's not really a "Target .36" like I hoped, but it is an intesting revolver from 1973.
I wonder how many .36s were made with modern, adjustable sights?

Are the bullets/balls shaving lead when loaded? This can cause inaccuracy as well. I know lots of guys here want to see a ring of lead cut from the ball but it's better if the ball is compressed into the chamber rather than having material removed from it. I do agree that matching chamber size to bore diameter is a great idea. Just my nickels worth.

Hi Gatofeo!
I'm certain that I sold you the gun in your description which was unfired when you bought it.
I also recall you posted before about it not meeting a higher standard of accuracy.
In reply to Jackrabbit, the original description mentioned that it had chamfered chambers. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/navy-arms-1858-new-belt-36.490766/#post-6092311
While I thought it was a Pietta, it looked very much like an Uberti .36 without target sights that was posted by ojh in another thread.
The front sight ramp certainly resembles the one on the current Uberti .44 target model.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/1858-remingtons.487604/

The reason for the less than stellar accuracy is probably due to it being made in 1973 when production standards weren't as high as they are today.
And while the sights make it a target model, that doesn't mean that it has any other target features.
Maybe 25 yards is an unrealistic distance for an older production revolver to maintain a tight group.
If you can come up with a better load at a closer distance, then maybe that can help to produce a better group at 25 yards.
Have you tried using a filler, or another brand of powder?
Maybe an ultra low velocity load would be more accurate.

Pietta makes a similar .36 target model but AFAIK no one imports it into the US.
But the difference is that it has the same full size frame as their .44 Remington.

As for the high POI, maybe you can make the front blase slightly higher. such as by capping it with a thin piece of plastic, brass or aluminum sheet?
Just fold and/or pinch something onto the front ramp and slide it up past the tip by a fraction.
Even tape might work temporarily, or structural epoxy.
Have you been trying to shoot any critters with that .36 revolver?
What kind and have you had any luck?

I hope that the desert is treating you well.
I really like your new avatar and it's a pleasure to see you on the board again.

 

[kBob]

I hope that the desert is treating you well.
I really like your new avatar and it's a pleasure to see you on the board again.

+1

-kBob

 

[skeeterfogger]

A consideration with chamfered cylinder is too large of ball when rammed can cause a fwd facing edge that can affect travel. Might try .375 and see if it hits better.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

How so? Can you explain that please?

 

[skeeterfogger]

The excess lead will be pushed to the front and the extra pressure on the ram will push a circular dent in the front of the ball. Will create an edge around ball against cylinder bore. Sometimes even going through the forcing cone won't clean it or can shift the form. It is most prevalent especially if the cylinder bore is less than barrel max.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Good to see Ya posting Mr Cat. Hope all's well.
Bummer that the pistol isn't as accurate as the sights...

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Seems like the solution is not using over size balls.

 

[skeeterfogger]

Seems like the solution is not using over size balls.

Check the barrel bore max to cylinder bore. If the cylinder is at least .001-.003 over barrel bore it should shoot straight.
Check the forcing cone for smoothness too.
Coupled with proper cylinder bore diameter the forcing cone should fix any irregularities and deliver a sound airodynamic shape and size that will solidly engaged the rifling.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Check the barrel bore max to cylinder bore. If the cylinder is at least .001-.003 over barrel bore it should shoot straight.
Check the forcing cone for smoothness too.
Coupled with proper cylinder bore diameter the forcing cone should fix any irregularities and deliver a sound airodynamic shape and size that will solidly engaged the rifling.

I am a firm believer in chambers being .001- 003 over groove diameter. I did a side by side comparison and it made a noticeable difference in accuracy. Now i try and have all my chambers reamed. Not saying you cant good accuracy with the stock chamber size...but there is room for improvement...and sometimes makes a poor shooting gun into a tack driver.

 

[skeeterfogger]

Yep. Did a Walker to .451 on the cylinder. Barrel was .446. Also increased cone length and polished and redressed the crown. Put it right on.

I am a firm believer in chambers being .001- 003 over groove diameter. I did a side by side comparison and it made a noticeable difference in accuracy. Now i try and have all my chambers reamed. Not saying you cant good accuracy with the stock chamber size...but there is room for improvement...and sometimes makes a poor shooting gun into a tack driver.